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Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

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Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#21

Post by wmf »

X-Istence wrote: post #10
dangrossman wrote: post #4

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the tablet or phone markets. Heck, it's barely a market participant. If Apple doesn't have to let people install Windows on an iPad, then the same should apply to Microsoft. This time, there's no "but there's a monopoly and the rules are different for monopolies" excuse.

Apple manufacturers both the hardware and the software and then sell it, there is no 3rd party involved in this transaction. Microsoft builds the OS and licenses it to a manufacture, they build the device and sell it. At least 3 parties involved. Microsoft's requirements need to be met to be able to license Windows 8 for tablets. Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to lock down their devices or else they aren't allowe…

Instead carriers require that all phones be locked. Different causes, but the same result.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#22

Post by burgerbrain »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #17

And that's how Microsoft killed ARM based netbooks, ultrabooks, tablets, etc that could potentially run Linux because most OEMs will want to have them licensed for use with Windows 8. Can we rehash all the dozen posts about this from months ago when people swore up on down that Microsoft wasn't going to do... well, what the rest of us expect at this point?

"Can we rehash all the dozen posts about this from months ago when people swore up on down that Microsoft wasn't going to do... well, what the rest of us expect at this point?"

This is almost the worst part of it for me. Those people get to play "the voice of reason" at the time, but they don't receive any of the deserved ridicule when their fantasy world doesn't pan out.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#23

Post by throwaway64 »

sounds wrote: post #9
dangrossman wrote: post #4

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the tablet or phone markets. Heck, it's barely a market participant. If Apple doesn't have to let people install Windows on an iPad, then the same should apply to Microsoft. This time, there's no "but there's a monopoly and the rules are different for monopolies" excuse.

I think the point here is that Microsoft is requiring additional restrictions that Android does not - when they both use the same handset hardware. Why should we give Microsoft a pass? Because they're the underdog? No. Android is not 100% open (e.g. binary-only kernel modules for proprietary hardware, Google not releasing honeycomb, ...) But that's no excuse for Microsoft to use cryptography against the customer. Mic…

Plenty of android devices have a bootloader that is just as locked down as the windows 8 ARM requirements.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#24

Post by vena »

throwaway64 wrote: post #23
sounds wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point here is that Microsoft is requiring additional restrictions that Android does not - when they both use the same handset hardware. Why should we give Microsoft a pass? Because they're the underdog? No. Android is not 100% open (e.g. binary-only kernel modules for proprietary hardware, Google not releasing honeycomb, ...) But that's no excuse for Microsoft to use cryptography against the customer. Mic…

Plenty of android devices have a bootloader that is just as locked down as the windows 8 ARM requirements.

They're not locked down by Google.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#25

Post by throwaway64 »

vena wrote: post #24
throwaway64 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of android devices have a bootloader that is just as locked down as the windows 8 ARM requirements.

They're not locked down by Google.

so what, that does not change the reality of the situation for the people that buy the devices.

EDIT: I am a device user, not a hardware OEM, like im certain most of the posters here are, to users of the device it really does not matter at all WHO is forcing the lockdown, the fact that it happens is the issue. Not sure why that very obvious point garners downvotes.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#26

Post by vena »

throwaway64 wrote: post #25
vena wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not locked down by Google.

so what, that does not change the reality of the situation for the people that buy the devices. EDIT: I am a device user, not a hardware OEM, like im certain most of the posters here are, to users of the device it really does not matter at all WHO is forcing the lockdown, the fact that it happens is the issue. Not sure why that very obvious point garners downvotes.

It very much changes the issue. That is not an OS developer requiring third-party hardware OEMs prevent loading another OS as part of their licensing agreement.

This is fairly specific anti-competitive behaviour, it's not an issue of locking devices in general.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#27

Post by adgar »

daeken wrote: post #3

I've been a Microsoft fanboy for a long time, and I've been speaking out about the Secure Boot brouhaha because there was effectively no evidence that they were actually attempting to lock anyone out, but this is simply inexcusable. Sad.

> I've been speaking out about the Secure Boot brouhaha because there was effectively no evidence that they were actually attempting to lock anyone out

No evidence, just history. Lots and lots of history.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#28

Post by nxn »

Well, this piece of news certainly just killed my "Windows 8 App" project. Even though I really do like Microsoft's tech, I just cannot support this type of behavior in any way. Maybe with mono I'll at least be able to salvage the server side parts and target Android based devices instead.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#29

Post by icebraining »

X-Istence wrote: post #10
dangrossman wrote: post #4

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the tablet or phone markets. Heck, it's barely a market participant. If Apple doesn't have to let people install Windows on an iPad, then the same should apply to Microsoft. This time, there's no "but there's a monopoly and the rules are different for monopolies" excuse.

Apple manufacturers both the hardware and the software and then sell it, there is no 3rd party involved in this transaction. Microsoft builds the OS and licenses it to a manufacture, they build the device and sell it. At least 3 parties involved. Microsoft's requirements need to be met to be able to license Windows 8 for tablets. Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to lock down their devices or else they aren't allowe…

So it's bad for Microsoft to force rules onto the manufacturers, but not for the manufacturers to force rules onto the consumers? How come?

In my opinion, both are bad. No, the manufacturers shouldn't have to make it easy (or make any effort at all) to help consumers install other OSs, but locking up the devices on purpose is no better than what MS is doing.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#30

Post by burgerbrain »

dangrossman wrote: post #4

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the tablet or phone markets. Heck, it's barely a market participant. If Apple doesn't have to let people install Windows on an iPad, then the same should apply to Microsoft. This time, there's no "but there's a monopoly and the rules are different for monopolies" excuse.

Your argument seems to assume that I think it is okay for Apple to do what they do... Let me put it this way:

1) Two wrongs do not make a right.

2) Both are worthy of criticism.

3) What Apple does is off topic anyway. This discussion is about Microsoft.

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