This is already doable with most wallets today. Most wallets enable you to create 2^64 addresses from the same seed phrase. These are hardened and can't be linked together by just creating them. So if Alice wants to send Bob an NFT, Bob creates a new address (recoverable with the same seed phrase) and Alice sends it there. Bob can then fund the wallet with tornado cash to use the NFT. It's a stupidly complex way to a…
Secret Network https://scrt.network/
An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
21–30 of 54 posts
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
None of this amounts to an "overreach" argument. Again: statutorily , where has the Treasury Department mis-stepped? You'll note that all kinds of entities, including full banks, are on the OFAC list[1]. This doesn't amount to a blanket ban on banking, and "it's just a bank, there are others" is not an argument that anyone finds convincing. [1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
The previously linked article makes 4 arguments but this is the one I find most compelling: even Treasury’s own regulations and past executive orders limit the applicability of sanction controls to transactions with persons, entities, or their property. The Tornado Cash sanction was made without statutory and also without regulatory authority. It was made contrary to law.
TL;DR: The Treasury Department doesn't care that Tornado Cash is "just" a computer program, because a computer program is an instrument made and operated by human beings. Even an autonomous program does not escape this, for the same reason that you can't escape a murder charge by throwing a bomb into the air and claiming gravity as a defense.
[1]: https://blog.yossarian.net/2022/09/14/Tornado-Cash-and-bulle...
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Given the uses for crypto in practice, it's a safe bet that the majority of use will be for illegal activities.
>Given the uses for crypto in practice, it's a safe bet that the majority of use will be for illegal activities. For the moment, that appears to be a good bet. I'm not aware of any current practical use case for cryptocurrency, that government-backed currencies don't provide, other than purchasing illegal goods and services. That said, government-backed currencies are also used for doing so as well, except cash trans…
Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
The previously linked article makes 4 arguments but this is the one I find most compelling: even Treasury’s own regulations and past executive orders limit the applicability of sanction controls to transactions with persons, entities, or their property. The Tornado Cash sanction was made without statutory and also without regulatory authority. It was made contrary to law.
I've read that post a couple of times, and even wrote a response to it[1]! TL;DR: The Treasury Department doesn't care that Tornado Cash is "just" a computer program, because a computer program is an instrument made and operated by human beings. Even an autonomous program does not escape this, for the same reason that you can't escape a murder charge by throwing a bomb into the air and claiming gravity as a defense.…
The government is not allowed to put a camera in my house and watch me 24/7. Sure, I might be committing crimes inside my house. But unless the government can convince a judge that they suspect me of committing crimes that justify such a camera, they cannot install said camera.
Similarly, merely using a technique to obfuscate the origin of my own money is not enough to claim I am a criminal. I can do similar with gold coins and paper cash, and in high dollar amounts.
Eventually I’ll want to use my financial assets to purchase something, and at that point the receiver should ask me where I got my money (if legally required to) and with Tornado Cash I can fully explain the origin of my legal funds.
Acting like Tornado itself is enabling crime is absurd.
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#25This is already doable with most wallets today. Most wallets enable you to create 2^64 addresses from the same seed phrase. These are hardened and can't be linked together by just creating them. So if Alice wants to send Bob an NFT, Bob creates a new address (recoverable with the same seed phrase) and Alice sends it there. Bob can then fund the wallet with tornado cash to use the NFT. It's a stupidly complex way to a…
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've read that post a couple of times, and even wrote a response to it[1]! TL;DR: The Treasury Department doesn't care that Tornado Cash is "just" a computer program, because a computer program is an instrument made and operated by human beings. Even an autonomous program does not escape this, for the same reason that you can't escape a murder charge by throwing a bomb into the air and claiming gravity as a defense.…
I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The government is not allowed to put a camera in my house and watch me 24/7. Sure, I might be committing crimes inside my house. But unless the government can convince a judge that they suspect me of committing crimes that justify such a camera, they cannot install said camera. Similarly, merely using a techn…
The link is explained in the post: in both instances, a human is the prime mover. No court in the world draws a distinction between "Joe kills Bob" and "Joe builds a Bob-killing robot that kills Bob." Similarly, no court in the world is likely to draw a distinction between "North Korea launders money" and "North Korea uses an autonomous program to launder money." It simply isn't relevant.
> Similarly, merely using a technique to obfuscate the origin of my own money is not enough to claim I am a criminal. I can do similar with gold coins and paper cash, and in high dollar amounts.
To be clear: if attempt to obfuscate your cash transactions by structuring them beneath the limits that trigger CTR reporting, you're committing a crime. You can have reasonable opinions about whether that ought to be a crime, but it is absolutely not legal in the current regulatory scheme to intentionally avoid your reporting requirements.
> Acting like Tornado itself is enabling crime is absurd.
We have a precise, material example of Tornado enabling a specific crime. That crime is the reason it's on the OFAC list, and it's stated in clear, precise language on the Treasury's site. Again: you can claim that Tornado is an instrument, and anything can be used to commit crime, but it is a matter of fact that Tornado was both used to commit crimes and made committing those crimes easier than they otherwise would have been (by sidestepping financial regulatory frameworks).
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
All tornado notes generate a proof that you can use to show where it came from. It’s the same as monero, another privacy coin which is not illegal. There is a long list of issues here but tornado is just a program. The users of that program can use it for good or bad. They sanctioned the creators and Tornado is still chugging along. It’s equivalent to banning cryptography because money launderers encrypt their messag…
None of this amounts to an "overreach" argument. Again: statutorily , where has the Treasury Department mis-stepped? You'll note that all kinds of entities, including full banks, are on the OFAC list[1]. This doesn't amount to a blanket ban on banking, and "it's just a bank, there are others" is not an argument that anyone finds convincing. [1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
There is also the issue of determining how it is a Foreign Asset to begin with. Is it based on the developer they identified? They have to prove that it was not deployed by an American which probably cannot be proven by the nodes (maybe records of an API could do it, but not when running your own nodes)
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
None of this amounts to an "overreach" argument. Again: statutorily , where has the Treasury Department mis-stepped? You'll note that all kinds of entities, including full banks, are on the OFAC list[1]. This doesn't amount to a blanket ban on banking, and "it's just a bank, there are others" is not an argument that anyone finds convincing. [1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
I think there are procedural issues not statutory ones. Procedure can undermine the statutory one, in this case there is a requirement for an entity to be able to argue on its own behalf to be removed from the sanctions list, this is not possible with the Tornado Cash contract addresses. There is also the issue of determining how it is a Foreign Asset to begin with. Is it based on the developer they identified? They…
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Given the uses for crypto in practice, it's a safe bet that the majority of use will be for illegal activities. For the moment, that appears to be a good bet. I'm not aware of any current practical use case for cryptocurrency, that government-backed currencies don't provide, other than purchasing illegal goods and services. That said, government-backed currencies are also used for doing so as well, except cash trans…
Sending money is a pretty clear use case. Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".
Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The government is not allowed to put a camera in my house and watch me 24/7. Sure, I might be committing crimes inside my house. But unless the government can convince a judge that they suspect me of committing crimes that justify such a camera, they cannot install said camera. Similarly, merely using a techn…
> I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The link is explained in the post: in both instances, a human is the prime mover. No court in the world draws a distinction between "Joe kills Bob" and "Joe builds a Bob-killing robot that kills Bob." Similarly, no court in the world is likely to draw a distinction between "North Korea launders money" and "…
I believe the law requires presumption of innocence. We shall see what the judge says. I think your arguments are unconvincing and actually, when analyzed, see them as dangerous and given to statist authoritarian tendencies.