Live data from Hacker News

Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

paizo.com

21–30 of 78 posts

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#21

While I understand the desire to define things legally - both by those who want the games to be open and by those who want to control them - game mechanics and rules are NOT copyrightable. We never needed OGL to publish material compatible with D&D (or any other system) in the first place [0]. [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/01/beware-gifts-dragons-h...

Even if this is the case, I don't think there are any companies in the space with deep enough pockets to go up against WotC and challenge it. Just the fear of legal reprisal is a huge problem and has a significant chilling effect that can't be ignored.

A new license is absolutely necessary in the context of the modern court system.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#22

While I understand the desire to define things legally - both by those who want the games to be open and by those who want to control them - game mechanics and rules are NOT copyrightable. We never needed OGL to publish material compatible with D&D (or any other system) in the first place [0]. [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/01/beware-gifts-dragons-h...

Even if you're certain you'd win a lawsuit, you'd still have to be able to afford that lawsuit. As we saw in the Google vs Amazon case of the Java API, such lawsuits can be long and complex, and most RPG publishers are tiny. WotC is probably bigger than the entire rest of the industry put together.

Even if technically game mechanics are fair use, where exactly to draw that line has never been tested in court, and in the past, well before the OGL, RPG developers publishing something that was intended to be compatible with someone else's game, have been sued over that. Including WotC itself in their early days.

So just that already gave WotC an incentive to want a more open license. And in the late 1990s, before they released the OGL, the RPG industry was shrinking, with each company on its own island, and no exchange of material between different systems. WotC reasoned that the value of an RPG comes primarily from how easy it is to find players to play the game with, and if all RPGs are built on the same core mechanics, they have a common player base and players can much more easily pick up a new game. That's why they created the OGL: to connect all the islands, create a common player base for everybody, make all RPGs more valuable as a result, and thereby make the entire industry bigger. A bigger pie, of which WotC got the biggest piece.

On top of that, they hoped that third party contributions would also improve D&D itself. Inspired by ESR's the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

But the real thing that convinced other publishers to contribute to this common OGL system, much more than any of the legalities, is the trust that WotC built. The OGL was a solemn promise that they would never sue anyone who stuck to the rules in the OGL. Instead of the vague complexities and grey areas of copyright law, there were now clear lines drawn about what you could and couldn't do. And that is what convinced other RPG publishers to go along with this. To trust WotC. And everybody benefited from it.

And now WotC destroyed that trust, and may never be able to repair that. Paizo is trying to rebuild a new similar agreement and the accompanying trust from the ruins of WotC's sudden idiocy.

WotC seems to be seeing the RPG industry as a zero-sum game, where any money made by someone else, is money not made by them. That's not how it works. WotC benefited enormously from the OGL. The biggest editions of D&D are those that used the OGL (3.x and 5), whereas 4 was significantly less popular, and at some point even outsold by Paizo's Pathfinder. RPGs have always been a community effort. 20 years ago, WotC understood that. Modern Hasbro leadership only thinks in terms of products and consumers, and that attitude is going to hurt D&D.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#23
post #10

> Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation). I'm not sure if the Linux Foundation is just a relevant example here or an actual contender to be the steward. I kind of hope it's the latter. TTRPG rules are close enough to code right? Structured instructions executed by humans with some flavor text at least.

Not really. That more applies to board-game rules; TTRPG systems are more like guidelines for GMs and players. But regardless of that, open source licences have nothing to do with what the code is doing; they are about using certain specific code in other products. Code is not copyrightable, so you can take some closed-source code and replicate its functionality in a different way - using different language idioms, o…

Code is copyrightable, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

It might not be patentable, except it is under some jurisdictions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#24
post #5

It's fine to include archive links in the thread, for example if a server is overwhelmed, but please post the original source as the top URL. " Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter. " - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We've changed the URL from https://web.archive.org/web/20230112230330/https://paizo.com... now.

The original is down now and archive still lives.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#25

This is exactly the sort of thing I hoped to see from Paizo once news of WotC's new license leaked. Good to see it! Really curious to see if the new license will be closer at all to something like Creative Commons or FOSS software licenses than the OGL was, or if it'll stay relatively close. My suspicion is Paizo will still want to keep control over their story/setting/etc so it'll likely lean towards the OGL in that…

The new license will probably be very similar to the OGL, except in being more explicit about its irrevocability, and not controlled by a single entity; once its written, Paizo will have no more control over this license than any other publisher.

But other than that, the content will be very similar. An open gaming license like this will always have to account for protected property rights. People will want to make Lord of the Rings, Star Wars and Harry Potter games. That requires a clear separation between the shared mechanics and the protected property, and they have to be able to be published in a text where they are deeply integrated with each other.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#26

While I understand the desire to define things legally - both by those who want the games to be open and by those who want to control them - game mechanics and rules are NOT copyrightable. We never needed OGL to publish material compatible with D&D (or any other system) in the first place [0]. [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/01/beware-gifts-dragons-h...

One good example are Battletech's Unseen Mech models. The stats were ok, the drawings were owned by some folks in Japan. Liscense agreements were impossible, so instead of risking a law suit, Battletech switched Mechs. And that required an in-universe retcon of sorts to explain why the Mechs everybody used and inhereted from their great-great-grandparents weren't there anymore.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I wasn’t expecting them to revoke the previous license, but instead remove the OGL from new versions Well, to be fair they did do exactly that with D&D 4e and the GSL. Which bombed spectacularly, as their audience continued to play 3.5 and Pathfinder which continued to use the OGL. This is actually WotC learning from their mistakes. If they launched 5.5e with a regressive and user-hostile licence, people would…

I don’t think you understand the hobby at all. Every game master, without exception, is a content creator. Most of them want to try new systems just to see what they are like. If they decide to go to other systems, that’s it for D&D. They can make all of the movies and books they want, but that won’t make people DM it. It doesn’t matter if they succeed in court or not. People will stop writing right now (and write fo…

It's definitely going to hurt D&D, and I can totally see D&D getting overtaken by other RPGs. But D&D is much more than just a game; it's a brand and cultural icon on par with Star Wars. Hasbro still has the name. They can merchandise the hell out of it. The game will exist, and even if much fewer people will play it, the rich history of D&D will still be attached to it.

> Hasbro pulling an Elon is not them “learning from their mistakes”, it’s just another offense.

They think they're learning, but they're learning the wrong lesson.

What they don't seem to realise is that the editions that used the OGL, are their most successful editions. And 4e that didn't, wasn't. Ryan Dancey (one of the creators of the OGL and VP at WotC at the time) even suggested that Paizo's Pathfinder system may have contributed to the success of D&D 5, because all the players who were disappointed with 4 could keep playing a game very close to D&D, and when D&D 5 came along, many of them switched back to D&D. Without Pathfinder, they might have strayed further and not have come back. Hasbro sees Pathfinder as the enemy, but it's not. You can be big together, and the OGL did make the RPG industry much bigger than it was before. I hope Paizo's new license will do the same.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#28

While I understand the desire to define things legally - both by those who want the games to be open and by those who want to control them - game mechanics and rules are NOT copyrightable. We never needed OGL to publish material compatible with D&D (or any other system) in the first place [0]. [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/01/beware-gifts-dragons-h...

> We never needed OGL to publish material compatible with D&D

And we never needed Apple's permission to have overlapping windows. Alas…

There was a long history of C&D letters and outright lawsuits. Heck, up until recently one of the head honchos of WotC was working at one of the companies being targeted by TSR in the 90s for their "Role Aids". A detente where you didn't have to worry about that as a small time publisher or hobbyist was rather appreciated.

Never mind that "mechanics" isn't as clearly described as we engineer type of nerds would like. So I'm writing my third party D&D-ish adventure. The players encounter a bunch of Orcs lead by an Evil Wizard. "Wizard" and "orc" existing way before D&D, so we're good here. But now I need to provide stat blocks, with abilities, hit points, "magic missile" spells etc. How far can I go where we move beyond "mechanics" and into "trade dress" or whatever lies beyond that legal dimension door?

Never mind that from a usability POV, there's a big benefit of having your stats exactly as WotC did them.

I often get the feeling that people citing the "rules can't be copyrighted!" adage don't game or are one of those people with three binders full of house rules.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I wasn’t expecting them to revoke the previous license, but instead remove the OGL from new versions Well, to be fair they did do exactly that with D&D 4e and the GSL. Which bombed spectacularly, as their audience continued to play 3.5 and Pathfinder which continued to use the OGL. This is actually WotC learning from their mistakes. If they launched 5.5e with a regressive and user-hostile licence, people would…

I don’t think you understand the hobby at all. Every game master, without exception, is a content creator. Most of them want to try new systems just to see what they are like. If they decide to go to other systems, that’s it for D&D. They can make all of the movies and books they want, but that won’t make people DM it. It doesn’t matter if they succeed in court or not. People will stop writing right now (and write fo…

Way too many Americans claim to play D&D, but in fact it's so far homebrewed it's a Theseus's Ship.

But D&D is synonymous for table-top roleplaying to Americans, that's what they have to do. Even the super famous podcasts where professional actors play "D&D" are barely using the official rules, they're more for flavour than actual mechanics.

I'm secretly hoping that this will actually push American players and GMs to consider other, better fitting, options for their games. If you want to play a sci-fi romp, maybe don't try to shoehorn it to D&D. Same with detective stories in a steampunk world.

Re: Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. That more applies to board-game rules; TTRPG systems are more like guidelines for GMs and players. But regardless of that, open source licences have nothing to do with what the code is doing; they are about using certain specific code in other products. Code is not copyrightable, so you can take some closed-source code and replicate its functionality in a different way - using different language idioms, o…

Code is copyrightable, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design It might not be patentable, except it is under some jurisdictions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent

You're right, I meant to write that the code behaviour is not copyrightable.
Post reply on HN