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The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

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Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#21

Post by clairity »

peteradio wrote: post #14
clairity wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's subtle, but "plan" (material resource planning, MRP) is essentially waterfall in this context, where you design first, then do work breakdown into a waterfall schedule. it suffers from cascading delays because of the bullwhip effect (among other things). it's project oriented (a 1-off, 1-time event). in contrast, "workflow" is akin to kanban in this context. you start with constraints (in this case time and mone…

I think what trips me up then is that "Plan" refers to a specific type of planning, I guess "MRP", but colloquially it would refer to anything that attempts to project how something will be done. Unfortunately I've had employers insist that planning in the colloquial sense was akin to waterfall and since we were agile it was verboten.

yah, plan is an overloaded word, like most words. here it seems to boil down to the old adage of "good, fast, cheap. choose two."[0] if you set scope and budget (the "plan" version), then you have to be flexible on deadline. if you set deadline and budget (the "workflow" version), you have to be flexible on scope. for the empire state building, they designed the building (controlled scope) to fit the budget and deadline.

whether it's waterfall or agile shouldn't really matter. in agile, there is planning, but often it's workflow based (tracking flow via story points, or what not).

[0]: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#22

Post by projektfu »

cs702 wrote: post #2

I found the OP very insightful, and would recommend reading and thinking about it. The lessons we can draw from the construction of The Empire State and other buildings of that era, before the advent of computers, are applicable to any large, capital-intensive project. My only reservation is that the OP fails to mention that some workers died during the construction of The Empire State building: According to the buil…

https://www.history.com/news/mohawk-skywalkers-ironworkers-n...

[warning: auto-play video]

It is an interesting history of the Mohawk ironworkers who built NYC. I came across another exhibit once that said that the ironworkers originally took the jobs because, culturally, they appreciated the risk and heroism, and then it became a tradition of the tribe. In fact, it was probably this risk tolerance that kept them working without harnesses and lifelines for as long as they did.

At the end of the above article, it says that 30-50 ironworkers still die each year.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#23

Post by projektfu »

peteradio wrote: post #14
clairity wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's subtle, but "plan" (material resource planning, MRP) is essentially waterfall in this context, where you design first, then do work breakdown into a waterfall schedule. it suffers from cascading delays because of the bullwhip effect (among other things). it's project oriented (a 1-off, 1-time event). in contrast, "workflow" is akin to kanban in this context. you start with constraints (in this case time and mone…

I think what trips me up then is that "Plan" refers to a specific type of planning, I guess "MRP", but colloquially it would refer to anything that attempts to project how something will be done. Unfortunately I've had employers insist that planning in the colloquial sense was akin to waterfall and since we were agile it was verboten.

Obviously there were blueprints and solid estimates of the materials and labor required to build the thing. This was no Gaudí cathedral. But there was nothing telling someone when things would be at which stage of construction, just the knowledge that some parts needed to get done in the summer and the whole thing needed to be ready for occupancy on May 1.

I think the story of the submarine/Polaris missile was more interesting. They produced the plan and basically ignored it, and the PERT planning exercise has subsequently been cargo-culted for years.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#24

Post by nerdponx »

yamtaddle wrote: post #16
clairity wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BLS says that roughly 5000 people die in construction accidents annually. those deaths are certainly tragic, but not disproportional.

Ordinary house roofing work (and, by extension, things like rooftop solar installations/maintenance) is terribly dangerous. Tons of deaths and serious injuries per year. Little attention on it at all, let alone political movement toward making it safer.

Isn't this partly because roofers rarely take the full "correct" range of safety precautions while working, because they would significantly slow down the work?

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#25

Post by axus »

yamtaddle wrote: post #5
cs702 wrote: post #2

I found the OP very insightful, and would recommend reading and thinking about it. The lessons we can draw from the construction of The Empire State and other buildings of that era, before the advent of computers, are applicable to any large, capital-intensive project. My only reservation is that the OP fails to mention that some workers died during the construction of The Empire State building: According to the buil…

> No one here would want to finish a project faster if the cost would be measured in human lives. People—including some here—choose risk to life for greater productivity, all the time. Every advocate of going back to the office, in places without excellent public transit or walkability, is proposing to trade some serious micromorts for extra productivity (driving's dangerous).

Apparently there was a historic increase in US road fatalities in 2020 and 2021 instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...

Maybe having more food delivery guys on the road is worse than more commuters, for public safety? Let's wait and see how 2022 did.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#26

Post by nerdponx »

cs702 wrote: post #2

I found the OP very insightful, and would recommend reading and thinking about it. The lessons we can draw from the construction of The Empire State and other buildings of that era, before the advent of computers, are applicable to any large, capital-intensive project. My only reservation is that the OP fails to mention that some workers died during the construction of The Empire State building: According to the buil…

I wonder how much longer the Empire State Building construction would have taken, or what other compromises would have been required (fewer floors, less ornamentation, etc) in order to prevent those deaths.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#27

Post by xyzelement »

chitowneats wrote: post #20

[flagged]

I am iffy on agile (I feel like it is a codification of common sense, but people who need common sense codified are going to fuck up anyway) but I think meditation has proven universally valuable with no controversy.

A hedge fund I used to work at would encourage and pay for Transcendental Meditation training ($1000 I believe) because the correlation between meditation and better decisions making/collaboration was so blatant.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#28

Post by QuiDortDine »

chitowneats wrote: post #20

[flagged]

Do you really feel like this is a real contribution to the conversation? Agile coaches help stabilize software development, and meditation teachers teach a valuable self-regulation skill. You not wanting or valuing something doesn't make it "snake oil".

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#29

Post by ElevenLathe »

nerdponx wrote: post #24
yamtaddle wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ordinary house roofing work (and, by extension, things like rooftop solar installations/maintenance) is terribly dangerous. Tons of deaths and serious injuries per year. Little attention on it at all, let alone political movement toward making it safer.

Isn't this partly because roofers rarely take the full "correct" range of safety precautions while working, because they would significantly slow down the work?

It probably also has to do with the fact that most of the work is small contractors, many without even a business license or insurance, or even just the homeowners themselves. Ironworkers deal with big structures where the financing demands large business entities and therefore usually unions, both of which are typically fanatical about worker safety.

Re: The Tyranny of ‘The Plan' (2013)

#30

Post by newsclues »

ciscoriordan wrote: post #10
newsclues wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one in the developed world would want to finish a project faster and for less money if the cost had to be measured in human lives. Depends. I think the Manhattan Project killed more people (not including using the bombs in combat).

Possibly including John von Neumann, one of the greatest polymaths ever. Everyday life now would be different if he had lived to a normal life expectancy instead of dying to aggressive cancer at 53.

Louis Slotin was a scientific hero for myself as a young person.
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