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Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

politico.eu

21–30 of 184 posts

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This would be no-problem if cities built more houses "Just build more houses" is not something that scales infinitely. Long commute distances and geography tends to get in the way with stuff like hills, mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans, etc. while demand from foreigners and tourists will stay virtually infinite. At which point do you stop building and say your city can't house more people without ruining the charact…

But in this case we are talking about replacing single-story buildings cities with multi-story apartments. Just about every city has plenty of room to build lots of housing via upzoning.

> single-story buildings cities with multi-story apartments

How many single story buildings does Lisbon have? I don't remember seeing that many. And how many of those single stary buildings are not under UNESCO historical heritage protection laws and you are allowed to buldoze?

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in this case we are talking about replacing single-story buildings cities with multi-story apartments. Just about every city has plenty of room to build lots of housing via upzoning.

> single-story buildings cities with multi-story apartments How many single story buildings does Lisbon have? I don't remember seeing that many. And how many of those single stary buildings are not under UNESCO historical heritage protection laws and you are allowed to buldoze?

Lisbon is a large city, not everything is the historic "old" city center. You don't even need to demolish anything, since there is space around, and even if you do, there are a lot of not-historic areas there.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the citizens want to make an extra buck renting their property?

The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket, because the landlord decided it's much more profitable to do weekly air-bnbs to tourists.

> The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket (...)

I have to call bullshit on this one. A few years ago I moved to a different country and I had an awful time trying to find an apartment to rent. Between awfully expensive flats and squalors, I was forced to extend my stay at an hotel for an additional month. This all ended when I managed to land a flat in a airbnb-like service. It was cheaper than half the apartments I visited at the time, and right in the city center. I spent over a month in that apartment and eventually landed a decent long-term rental, but if it wasn't for the airbnb-like service either I would be forced to burn through cash to stay at hotels or settle with being exploited by abusive landlords. Midway through I even considered just sticking with the airbnb-like service even though I'd risk being out-booked.

Perhaps people like you could spend a minute thinking things through and consider why there is demand for offers somewhere between hotels and long-term rentals, which frequently are completely out of reach of those who have to move to a new city in a short notice.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#24
Young Portuguese have been emigrating for the last 50 years. The country is full of second residences, bought by people who took advantage of cheap real estate until recently. Blaming today's inflation and cost of living on a few digital nomads or crypto people doesn't make much sense.

What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I have always wondered what was the reason for that...

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket, because the landlord decided it's much more profitable to do weekly air-bnbs to tourists.

> The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket (...) I have to call bullshit on this one. A few years ago I moved to a different country and I had an awful time trying to find an apartment to rent. Between awfully expensive flats and squalors, I was forced to extend my stay at an hotel for an additional month. This all…

There would be a lot more long-term rentals available if there was no airbnb (because airbnb is the reason that you were unable to find a long-er term rental in the first place).

Limit the rentals to 1 month (or 2) minimum and you have all the bases covered.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#26

Not advocating for the influx of "crypto bros" and "digital nomads" but to blame the current wave of inflation on them is a bit ridiculous

> Not advocating for the influx of "crypto bros" and "digital nomads" but to blame the current wave of inflation on them is a bit ridiculous

Good, because this article is about neither but easy to deflect if all you look at is the title; its mostly about the affluent and those who could work remotely (not entirely nomadic as they were already EU citizens) who took advantage of this scheme, here are the most important takeaways that support that it's scope goes beyond either for the issues seen now on PT:

> Belgian entrepreneur Jan Deruyck, who moved to Portugal in 2021 with his wife Morgane to build feminine health startup Guud in “full isolation” during the pandemic, is one of them. But a year and a half later, he’s out: “[They have] huge ambitions, but there’s little execution.”

> Thank the Web Summit for the visas' shift toward tech workers: It’s “one of the reasons why Lisbon got on the map of Silicon Valley entrepreneurs,” said Armand Arton, founder of the Global Citizen Forum, a members’ club for well-heeled cosmopolites. “Then COVID happened and we started getting calls from wealthy American families saying they wanted a residence permit to enter Europe at any time [regardless of travel restriction]. They got golden visas by investing in technology companies.”

> Not to be left out, EU citizens also flocked into Portugal to work remotely during the pandemic, taking advantage of a “non-habitual resident” tax regime that exempts foreign income from taxation and charges a flat 20 percent rate on Portugal-generated revenue from high-value professional activities. Managing a company or working in the technology field can qualify for such activities, making the scheme attractive to digital nomads.

I'm a DN and came over during COVID, in the onset PT was on my list, but after the headache I had to deal with the HR government and the sheer incompetence and abject failure to do even basic functions, I realized PT was the same but with the added headache of competing with a much broader scope of people and the longer backorders and growing wait list, the processing time went from 6 months to a year plus for approval because of the influx.

Furthermore, the main cities soon started to look like a common tourist traps and all that follows because of the crowds who came over which was one of the reasons I wanted to get out of the US in the first place and ultimately made the decision for me.

I'm not surprised locals are pissed, they should be: but they should primarily direct their anger toward their government that because of failed policy, poor economic and investment strategies have made the decades long brain-drain in PT necessary, and in turned hollowed out their entire economy in the process which led to the typical housing and property speculation and consolidation from foreign investment as big as it is, and golden visa schemes the only thing monetarily viable in their country other than tourism.

The truth is that Portugal, despite being geographically the most Western of all nations in the EU, is pretty much on par with it's E. European counterparts (made up of former Soviet satellites or fragmented Republics of Yugoslavia) economically, socially and politically so; Digital nomad visas didn't do that, it just made it more accessible in what is actually just a glimpse of what is to come: as the Global population starts to recede (gradually and then suddenly) from it's 8 billion high as more boomer start to die the unfunded liabilities within the system will have already bled it dry in pensions and medical costs and the only thing left will be to compete for citizens with favorable status--Portugal didn't just offer a DN a tax free temporary residence, but full fledged EU citizenship within 5 years with some caveats. It was essentially a longer path toward the Golden Visa that is only offered to those wealthy enough to buy-in their way into passport hunting.

Just for context, even Germany (the most non-PIIGS nation) is struggling to keep the hospitals running [0] because of the staff shortages after COVID, and even keeping up with supplies is suffering due to the supply shortages and over-dependence on imported made drugs and devices in a mainly manufacturing country is staggering, and it has been made worse since the invasion in Ukraine due to the cost hikes on everything.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=075AAaehmN8

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#27
post #16

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the govern…

> Regarding Airbnbs and rising housing prices

Didn't they recently crack down on Airbnb's, adding requirements that should theoretically lower the drive to turn unoccupied housing into Airbnb's (essentially limiting people purchasing flats with this intention)?

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket, because the landlord decided it's much more profitable to do weekly air-bnbs to tourists.

> The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket (...) I have to call bullshit on this one. A few years ago I moved to a different country and I had an awful time trying to find an apartment to rent. Between awfully expensive flats and squalors, I was forced to extend my stay at an hotel for an additional month. This all…

> Perhaps people like you could spend a minute thinking things through and consider why there is demand for offers somewhere between hotels and long-term rentals, which frequently are completely out of reach of those who have to move to a new city in a short notice.

Like a lot of HN, many people have lots of opinions on things they have neither done or have experienced first hand but seem to be most vocal on such matters.

Agreed, I don't blame Airbnb or it's counterparts in other countries, they are just capitalizing on the larger (systemic but ultimately manufactured) housing crisis because the greater issue is with making real estate holdings the only way to accrue or retain any wealth as more and more of the real economy gets hallowed out.

I personally leveraged my first Airbnb stay as an early adopter and did what they say 'you should never do' and ultimately cut them out as a needless middle man and made return trips for several years without them in the off-season and got an even better rate!

Alternatively, I've paid rental agencies who did nothing but list their property on their website and provided a day to see the place and not much else as I met with the owner's myself had to find translation solutions and ultimately saw how they added just as much if not less value than Airbnb in the over all process of finding a rental home/apartment and saw that it's a symptom not the cause of the malaise we see since 2008 crisis and perhaps even before in the dotcom bubble in 2000 that made 2008 inevitable.

People want an easy scapegoat, and while I agree real-estate and landlords are predatory by design I still don't think Airbnb is to blame here and I don't even think they are a 'good' business, in fact I stopped using them entirely despite being an early adopter, but they've used their platform to house more people in certain crisis' than even some nation-states have.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#29
post #24

Young Portuguese have been emigrating for the last 50 years. The country is full of second residences, bought by people who took advantage of cheap real estate until recently. Blaming today's inflation and cost of living on a few digital nomads or crypto people doesn't make much sense. What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I ha…

No idea about Lisbon but it was common in Brussels to let an old building "rot" to the point where the owner could destroy it and rebuild a new one. This way, they could build a bigger/better building and sell apartment at higher price than just fix the original building.

Demolition permit are hard to obtain but if your building is too decrepit, the city will force you to destroy it.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#30
post #24

Young Portuguese have been emigrating for the last 50 years. The country is full of second residences, bought by people who took advantage of cheap real estate until recently. Blaming today's inflation and cost of living on a few digital nomads or crypto people doesn't make much sense. What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I ha…

Re abandoned buildings: it’s likely due to the inheritance laws for Portugal, which are unique in the way things are automatically split upon deaths and require official signoff from all parties that are inheritors for sale. If another death occurs, then their own more inheritors for that individual.
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