Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last • Hacker News Board

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#21

Post by chunk_waffle » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

uberman wrote: post #6

chunk_waffle wrote: post #2

As someone who had to work countless, sleepless nights and weekends in a crazy push to get a REAL ID solution implemented it really annoys me that they extended the deadline. I've long since left that company but there were multiple pushes like that where we were trying to get a state compliant before the previous deadlines.

First, I understand your pain. I once worked on a team building a product for a multi billion silicon valley company only to have to project cancelled on the very evening before launch. It sucked and I felt cheated. It took a long time for me to realize that I had been paid to do what I did and they choose to throw the work away, but it was theirs to discard. With respect to Real ID, it is a stupid program and should…

> It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants.

I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all.

> every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly.

This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don't think that's a bad thing.

It also helps prevent identity theft and sets a bare minimum for states handing out identity-proving documents. I've been in DMVs when the new system caught fake documents and fake licenses that would not have been caught before (having worked on both the REAL ID and non-REAL ID systems.)

> In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who don't already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us)

I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Also, keep in mind it is the state that sets the price of a REAL ID card. The federal government even gave grants to many (all?) states and territories to implement the program.

> doing very little to actually make air travel safer.

I agree with this. I don't think it particularly improves the security or safety of flights either and wish the whole program was decoupled from flying. There are real improvements to the security of DMV's systems and their vetting processes. Especially for some states/territories that were handing out ID's and licenses like candy. Though in a whole the program has been a mess as can be seen with the numerous extensions.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#22

Post by landemva » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 4:51 PM UTC

hacym wrote: post #18

yial wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been asked for an ID to pick up prescriptions. Name, date of birth, and once address. But never an ID. I’ve traveled across the US without having to show an ID for anything. I have usually needed to show an ID to stay at a hotel, but not an Airbnb(or did I have to upload it at some point? I can’t remember now), or some rental condos. (Diamond for example doesn’t always ask for one). That said, I agree wi…

Certain OTC and prescription drugs definitely require an ID. Think coffee syrups and potent pain meds.

That apparently depends on pharmacy, as I had a friend pick up pain meds for me after a surgery.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#23

Post by landemva » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

chunk_waffle wrote: post #21

uberman wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I understand your pain. I once worked on a team building a product for a multi billion silicon valley company only to have to project cancelled on the very evening before launch. It sucked and I felt cheated. It took a long time for me to realize that I had been paid to do what I did and they choose to throw the work away, but it was theirs to discard. With respect to Real ID, it is a stupid program and should…

> It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all. > every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don'…

Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on.

More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket.

> security of DMV's systems

It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#24

Post by prmph » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

thatguy0900 wrote: post #5

more_corn wrote: post #4

Real ID’s sole purpose is to punitively restrict travel for non citizens, particularly undocumented workers. If you value liberty you should oppose it. It’s the best example of a specific step in the slide to a restrictive police state. In no way does it improve security. I encourage everyone to speak out against it.

I'm not really convinced doing something about illegal immigrants is a step towards a police state. Is this US only rhetoric? Do other countries regularly just allow people to immigrate illegaly and are not interested in doing anything about it? Like I can't imagine just boating to some random coast in Norway and expect to just live a new life there unimpeded by the law.

What is wrong with that? By what natural law is moving across cities at will OK, but moving across borders not OK? Legal restriction of movement across borders makes no sense.

I mean, wherever you are, you should follow the law. If I'm a criminal, I should be dealt with wherever I find myself. If I don't commit crimes, I should be free to live where I want to live, provided I pay taxes and can pay to stay there.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#25

Post by hooverd » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

bootlooped wrote: post #11

I like the attempt to scare the reader by pointing out the barcode is unencrypted and anybody with an simple scanner could get it. But if they're holding your ID I'm pretty sure they can already read all of that same info printed on the front of the card.

You can identify identity thieves by the CueCat hidden up their sleeve.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#26

Post by chunk_waffle » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

landemva wrote: post #23

chunk_waffle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all. > every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don'…

Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on. More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket. > security of DMV's systems It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.

Boarding a plane before 9/11 was much easier, and I'm not necessarily convinced that TSA, DHS, or REAL ID have a security impact on flying relative to their cost and burden on citizens. I think there is a lot of incompetence and unnecessary expenses there. So we're in agreement on that.

I think the security screening (I might even call it mild molestation) required to board a flight should trump any need for any identity document. I don't think REAL ID's goals should be co-mingled with flying.

I'd also agree that a driver's license shouldn't be an identity document either. But unfortunately at some point in history it was decided that a DL should be an identity document too so unfortunately it's wrapped up with everything else.

There are not just REAL ID licenses either, there are REAL ID IDs too, just for identity.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#27

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

hacym wrote: post #18

yial wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been asked for an ID to pick up prescriptions. Name, date of birth, and once address. But never an ID. I’ve traveled across the US without having to show an ID for anything. I have usually needed to show an ID to stay at a hotel, but not an Airbnb(or did I have to upload it at some point? I can’t remember now), or some rental condos. (Diamond for example doesn’t always ask for one). That said, I agree wi…

Certain OTC and prescription drugs definitely require an ID. Think coffee syrups and potent pain meds.

It's not just a question of controlled medicines. There's also the question of insurance fraud. Some pharmacies (or insurance companies?) want to make sure that, if the J. Doe's insurance is paying for it, it's actually going to J. Doe.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#28

Post by cnelsenmilt » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

adamrezich wrote: post #20

rolenthedeep wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, I had just assumed it was a voter suppression measure

what is wrong with "suppressing" votes of non-citizens?

That's not what the comment you're replying to said.

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#29

Post by onetokeoverthe » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

landemva wrote: post #23

chunk_waffle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants. I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all. > every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly. This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don'…

Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on. More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket. > security of DMV's systems It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.

[dead]

Re: Real ID was a real mistake and Congress should scrap it at last

#30

Post by km3r » Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

prmph wrote: post #24

thatguy0900 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really convinced doing something about illegal immigrants is a step towards a police state. Is this US only rhetoric? Do other countries regularly just allow people to immigrate illegaly and are not interested in doing anything about it? Like I can't imagine just boating to some random coast in Norway and expect to just live a new life there unimpeded by the law.

What is wrong with that? By what natural law is moving across cities at will OK, but moving across borders not OK? Legal restriction of movement across borders makes no sense. I mean, wherever you are, you should follow the law. If I'm a criminal, I should be dealt with wherever I find myself. If I don't commit crimes, I should be free to live where I want to live, provided I pay taxes and can pay to stay there.

The same reason I can't just walk into your house and make myself lunch out of your fridge. The people of this country have the same right as the owner of a house to control who can come in and to ask for some requirements as to do so. If you want to loosen the requirements, feel free to get a majority of the owners of the country (we, the people) to agree.