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The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

bbc.com

21–30 of 124 posts

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#21
post #18
post #3

Nice article. Wish they had gone on to cover Cosimo Medici! He was the best. Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today.

>Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today. When it comes to culture, do we still need funding? The internet offers connection and replication. What is preventing the people with the right skills from coming together and creating the next level of civilization?

Well those people still need to eat, have a roof over their head, etc. so that they live comfortable enough lives to be able to create whatever it is they're creating.

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#22
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This? https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foires_de_Lyon

Interestingly, the English equivalent of that page describes an event that's been happening only since 1985.

There's a fairly significant amount of information locked away in language-specific Wikipedia - many French things have a stub article in English, and an absolute essay in French

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#23
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today. When it comes to culture, do we still need funding? The internet offers connection and replication. What is preventing the people with the right skills from coming together and creating the next level of civilization?

Well those people still need to eat, have a roof over their head, etc. so that they live comfortable enough lives to be able to create whatever it is they're creating.

When somebody offers food and shelter, people will fill the space and they will create whatever that person asks them to do. They will create Netflix productions and Google chat apps and Meta VR spaces.

The internet allows people to connect without the initial need for funding. If funding is needed, the internet makes it possible for a team to discover investors and foundations that would add financial support.

The limiting factor are not resources but teams.

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#24

I'm pretty sure they got this 'original' idea from the practice of their Muslim contemporaries. This is a very similar concept to the origin of cheque where it's too dangerous to carry gold and cash along the silk road from Middle East countries to China and beyond.

Stupid question, but wouldn't stealing a cheque work back then? I mean I can imagine only known people would be allowed to cash it. Plus there's more benefits to carrying a cheque, large quantities get difficult to move around (same with cash money, which is one reason that higher denominations are discouraged)

It sure worked. One of the reasons the value of those cheques dropped with distance to the issuer. Basically, it was a trust based system. And one that worked extremely well. With added benefits for those that figured out proper accounting around assets, liabilities and so on. The Italian bankers did, the Hanse (North German economic and trade super power made of individual merchants) did not, for example.

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#25

I'm pretty sure they got this 'original' idea from the practice of their Muslim contemporaries. This is a very similar concept to the origin of cheque where it's too dangerous to carry gold and cash along the silk road from Middle East countries to China and beyond.

Stupid question, but wouldn't stealing a cheque work back then? I mean I can imagine only known people would be allowed to cash it. Plus there's more benefits to carrying a cheque, large quantities get difficult to move around (same with cash money, which is one reason that higher denominations are discouraged)

A cheque would be both easier to travel with (thus exposing yourself to less harm) but also comparatively illquid (can perhaps only be redeemed in a few locations which may not be realistically accessible to highwaymen).

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#26

I'm pretty sure they got this 'original' idea from the practice of their Muslim contemporaries. This is a very similar concept to the origin of cheque where it's too dangerous to carry gold and cash along the silk road from Middle East countries to China and beyond.

The word "original" does not appear so I don't know why you've put it in quotes. Indeed you don't have to read very far down the article to find acknowledgement that something similar had been done centuries earlier in China.

Edit: I see the headline (probably written by someone other than the author) says they "invented banking". There are of course many claims to that dubious honour!

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#27
post #3

Nice article. Wish they had gone on to cover Cosimo Medici! He was the best. Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today.

> Need people like that today. Florentine maecenas were no different from billionaires today chasing each other in space races. They didn't sponsor artists for the sake of art but rather as a display of wealth and power. Edit: I am clarifying intention here, it does not mean that the side effects don't have a net positive, but they are unlikely to come from a purely altruistic place.

Pardon me, so? Back to the dark ages?

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#28
post #18
post #3

Nice article. Wish they had gone on to cover Cosimo Medici! He was the best. Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today.

>Inventing banking and then using the profits to fund the renaissance? Need people like that today. When it comes to culture, do we still need funding? The internet offers connection and replication. What is preventing the people with the right skills from coming together and creating the next level of civilization?

In 2022 its influencers and fake news peddler which the oligarchs sponsor.

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#29

Those wonderful knights templar! Brave Christian crusaders! Warrior monks! > Our financial system today has a lot in common with this model. This bit might be true, but what was the real story?

> what was the real story?

Some of the grittier truth may be about political expediency of taming "knights". Monty Python caricatures aside, until (and beyond) the Templars, many were marauding bands of privateers looting their way around Europe. Sending them off to do God's work while letting them play at "banking" the spoils was probably a neat solution to not having a standing army, but still keeping a cadre of loyal battle-hardened dudes on a string.

When their use expired, as maturing nation states found them less convenient, King Philip IV ordered them rounded up (apocryphally on Friday 13th) in a betrayal I think George Lucas adapted as the fate of The "Jedi".

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#30

I'm pretty sure they got this 'original' idea from the practice of their Muslim contemporaries. This is a very similar concept to the origin of cheque where it's too dangerous to carry gold and cash along the silk road from Middle East countries to China and beyond.

Stupid question, but wouldn't stealing a cheque work back then? I mean I can imagine only known people would be allowed to cash it. Plus there's more benefits to carrying a cheque, large quantities get difficult to move around (same with cash money, which is one reason that higher denominations are discouraged)

I'm not sure if the rules were the same as far back as then, but the modern rule (or rules, plural, as they're a consequence of several rules) that a bank (either the drawee bank or an intermediate paying/depository bank, depending on the circumstances) is liable for a fraudulently cashed check has existed for centuries, IIRC. And just like today, it doesn't much matter if an impersonator forged a payee's or endorsee's signature, amount, etc; a bank is still on the hook. (And IIRC a bank is liable only upon a prima facie showing of forgery, as opposed to whatever stronger burden of proof would normally adhere.) Of course, the defrauding party is liable to which ever bank was on the hook, but the rules operate to rather clearly make a bank strictly liable in the first instance so there's minimal confusion in the banking system regarding settlements or settlement disputes, and the drawer (person who wrote the check) is the most protected of all.

This incentivizes banks to "know your customer" (long before modern regulatory regimes), as well as for banks to only deal with other reputable banks. In legal jurisdictions that do a lot of international commercial transactions, rules such as these are typically held paramount unless specifically and clearly overridden by local law. Relatedly, jurisdictions that don't abide the so-called Lex mercatoria tend not to become centers of international commerce.

If the drawer weren't strongly protected, the utility of checks would severely diminished.

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