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Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

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Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#21

Post by 0xbadc0de5 »

defrost wrote: post #18
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to blame a single bad actor in individual cases, but there still exists the very serious issue that it is even possible for single bad actors to advocate for killing their patients. Add to that the bureaucratic capture, and it's all but inevitable that we will see more, and more disturbing cases. After all, as soon as euthanasia is a profession, there will be people who will need to perform that role. They…

> The only winning move is not to play. That's not a winning move for those that sought the right of voluntary euthanasia (that to which the subject consents). As for your argument we can see it in action expressed via the number of firefighters that start fires to keep themselves employed and I take your point that the only defence is to eliminate fire departments.

If you think that the edge case (killing people) outweighs the normal case (treating people), then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not arguing against the idea that a small number of people have suffering so severe that they may seek suicide to alleviate it. I'm arguing that the normalisation of such "treatment" is fraught with unintended consequences and perverse incentives. And people may (will) be killed who otherwise would not have been as a result.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#22

Post by Levitz »

ben_w wrote: post #13
sgtnoodle wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bet Canada hasn't run out of chair lifts.

While I would also make this bet, there's a reason why economics is sometimes called "the dismal science" — the resources that went into making a stairlift (and proportional share of the factory) could, in principle, have instead been used to build enough mosquito nets to save approximately one life, while also improving the quality of life for another thousand. Even if you're not being as much of a colossal arse as…

>Even if you're not being as much of a colossal arse as the headline of this story, which do you think is a better thing for money to be spent on?

The problem is no first world country is anywhere near finding itself in such position.

Resources are limited, but more often than not the problem lies in the allocation of those resources. If Canada can spend thousands of hundreds of dollars on bringing a giant rubber duck to a festival, it ought to be able to provide a goddamned stairlift.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#23

Post by wisnoskij »

dontbenebby wrote: post #20
tomohawk wrote: post #9

While this is likely not due to an official policy, it is certainly due to a conflict of interest. Medical personnel should not be involved in euthanasia. While they have the requisite medical knowledge, medicine should be about saving lives, or at least palliative care. Euthanists should be a separate thing, if they exist at all. Euthanasia is about death, not life. No one should go to the doctor for medical care an…

>Medical personnel should not be involved in euthanasia. While they have the requisite medical knowledge, medicine should be about saving lives, or at least palliative care. Speaking as an American who's talked to a lot of Canadians and made many trips there, one issue is that pallative care can bleed into euthanasia due to tolerances around opiates... what happens when you give someone enough medication to cure thei…

>Speaking as an American who's talked to a lot of Canadians and made many trips there, one issue is that pallative care can bleed into euthanasia due to tolerances around opiates... what happens when you give someone enough medication to cure their pain, and they overdose? Or if you give them enough in a bottle to do so on their own? That's how you get to a point that people are handed nothing but Tylenol and an offer of a suicide booth or whatever... that is.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say here. Yes Doctors work with a lot of people on the edge of death, so their patients die all the time. Also Canadian doctors are not liable for the harm they cause in the same way as American Doctors. But poor care, freak accidents, or patients too close to death save are not the same thing as euthanasia.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#24

Post by wisnoskij »

sgtnoodle wrote: post #5
andrewclunn wrote: post #4

[flagged]

I'll bet Canada hasn't run out of chair lifts.

Maybe, maybe not, but it has run out of medical funding and the MAID people publish yearly reports of how much money their survives have save the medical institution.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#25

Post by defrost »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #21
defrost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only winning move is not to play. That's not a winning move for those that sought the right of voluntary euthanasia (that to which the subject consents). As for your argument we can see it in action expressed via the number of firefighters that start fires to keep themselves employed and I take your point that the only defence is to eliminate fire departments.

If you think that the edge case (killing people) outweighs the normal case (treating people), then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not arguing against the idea that a small number of people have suffering so severe that they may seek suicide to alleviate it. I'm arguing that the normalisation of such "treatment" is fraught with unintended consequences and perverse incentives. And people may (will) be k…

And your plan to deal with unintended consequences is what?

To avoid any legal assisted dying at all under any circumstances?

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#26

Post by wisnoskij »

As a Canadian I want to point out this article is quite misleading.

The issue is far more systemic than this article claims. In Canada MAID is the 6th leading cause of death, and is rising so fast it is basically guaranteed to be the 3rd cause by 2025.

Doctors that will not back the MAID initiative are fired, every year they expand the criteria under which you can be euthanize, right now they want to expand it to include poverty.Their are reports of children and confused elderly being tricked into euthanasia without their families knowledge. And we get reports on how much all this is saving the government.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#27

Post by dontbenebby »

wisnoskij wrote: post #23
dontbenebby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Medical personnel should not be involved in euthanasia. While they have the requisite medical knowledge, medicine should be about saving lives, or at least palliative care. Speaking as an American who's talked to a lot of Canadians and made many trips there, one issue is that pallative care can bleed into euthanasia due to tolerances around opiates... what happens when you give someone enough medication to cure thei…

>Speaking as an American who's talked to a lot of Canadians and made many trips there, one issue is that pallative care can bleed into euthanasia due to tolerances around opiates... what happens when you give someone enough medication to cure their pain, and they overdose? Or if you give them enough in a bottle to do so on their own? That's how you get to a point that people are handed nothing but Tylenol and an offe…

>I am not really sure what you are trying to say here. Yes Doctors work with a lot of people on the edge of death, so their patients die all the time. Also Canadian doctors are not liable for the harm they cause in the same way as American Doctors. But poor care, freak accidents, or patients too close to death save are not the same thing as euthanasia.

My bad... I was saying if you're on the edge of death, nudging towards euthenasia when the situation could be cured with some kind of assistive device is abusive.

>Also Canadian doctors are not liable for the harm they cause in the same way as American Doctors.

Then I guess they can do things like caution someone the amount needed to cure their pain may kill them? I've never really had a doctor who did anything but treat the relationship as extortionary -- if I don't make a fuss about whatever mistakes they make, they won't try to say I should go into a mental health facility.

(It's really exhausting when the barrier to your mental health is lack of income.)

Sorry if my post was a bit rambly or unclear, I'm just... not having a good day... and trying to distract myself with the news.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#28

Post by Spooky23 »

sgtnoodle wrote: post #19
ben_w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would also make this bet, there's a reason why economics is sometimes called "the dismal science" — the resources that went into making a stairlift (and proportional share of the factory) could, in principle, have instead been used to build enough mosquito nets to save approximately one life, while also improving the quality of life for another thousand. Even if you're not being as much of a colossal arse as…

If you think the solution to a disabled veteran's difficulty getting up stairs is to kill her, then it follows that the solution to mosquito bites is to let folk die from malaria. It seems like you're attacking a straw man. Some people can make chair lifts and other people can make mosquito nets. We can and do have both. I also doubt that significantly increasing global mosquito net manufacturing capacity would make…

Of course these issues are straw man generators.

Everyone is a tough guy for issues like this until they or a loved one need care. Nobody is ranting about communists in a waiting room.

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#29

Post by 0xbadc0de5 »

defrost wrote: post #25
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that the edge case (killing people) outweighs the normal case (treating people), then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not arguing against the idea that a small number of people have suffering so severe that they may seek suicide to alleviate it. I'm arguing that the normalisation of such "treatment" is fraught with unintended consequences and perverse incentives. And people may (will) be k…

And your plan to deal with unintended consequences is what? To avoid any legal assisted dying at all under any circumstances?

To prevent innocent people from being killed as a result, yes. That does seem like the more ethical choice.

This is not about my opinion of whether an individual should be allowed to end their own life - which I'm agnostic of. This is about the normalisation and institutionalisation of such practice as inherently risky and devaluing of human life.

When you allow the state to end a life under any circumstances, you open the door to allowing the state to end a life under any circumstances. (aka - the slippery slope argument)

Re: Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death

#30

Post by tehwebguy »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #21
defrost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only winning move is not to play. That's not a winning move for those that sought the right of voluntary euthanasia (that to which the subject consents). As for your argument we can see it in action expressed via the number of firefighters that start fires to keep themselves employed and I take your point that the only defence is to eliminate fire departments.

If you think that the edge case (killing people) outweighs the normal case (treating people), then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not arguing against the idea that a small number of people have suffering so severe that they may seek suicide to alleviate it. I'm arguing that the normalisation of such "treatment" is fraught with unintended consequences and perverse incentives. And people may (will) be k…

Right, you are arguing a strawman
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