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Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

jordanvisco.com

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Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#21

Post by potatolicious »

The fundamental assumption here is that:

1 - A beggar will use the proceeds from begging to improve his/her life in a semi-permanent way.

2 - The beggar is capable of "recovery" in the way most lay people perceive the homeless.

Given that, in North America at least, homelessness goes practically hand in hand with substance abuse, #1 is far from a safe assumption. More often than not the proceeds of begging go straight back into booze and drugs.

Now, there's a certain school of thought where that doesn't matter - these people have shite for lives, who are we to judge if they choose to numb themselves in their hopeless situation. If I was to be homeless for the rest of my life, with no hope of anything else, I probably would start drinking. masterzora pretty succinctly summarized it elsewhere in the thread.

Which leads to point #2, which is something I don't think a lot of people really get. I don't claim to be an expert in this issue, but I've worked at shelters and kitchens in the past - and the way I see it, a lot of these people really are hopeless.

The second factor that goes hand in hand with homelessness in America is mental illness. That's something some people don't seem to be aware of. Conservatives see the homeless as lazy good-for-nothings. Liberals see them as simply people down on their luck. Both are based on the presumption that becoming "normal" again is an option that is on the table. For a large portion of the homeless population, this simply is not true. Even if you resolve the substance dependencies, you still have a litany of mental health issues that will prevent the bulk of these people from being "functioning" members of society - functioning in the way that society normally expects of its citizenry anyhow.

To circle back to the blog author's question:

> "What if EVERYONE gave to beggars?"

Then you will see an explosion of begging, but not a proportional reduction in homelessness. The ratio of genuinely homeless/needy folk on the street vs. profiteering "fake" beggars will become horrifically skewed. The extra noise will mean greater difficulty in necessary social services from reaching the people who need it. All in all, the genuinely poverty-stricken homeless folk will suffer more than they already are today.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#22

Post by yummyfajitas »

maratd wrote: post #15

There are many ways to give to the poor and giving to the poor on a regular, consistent schedule is in my humble opinion, a moral imperative. However, giving handouts to beggars is a terrible idea. You are encouraging loitering and more importantly, depending on the location, they can pull in more cash than a menial job would. While that may leave a bad taste in your mouth, that's not the worst of it. Keep in mind th…

Please, just give money to a local organization that assists the poor, like a soup kitchen.

Or even better, give money to a charitable organization that assists foreigners who are vastly poorer than every single person in the US.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#23

Post by masterzora »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #16

Would it be possible to be a beggar if everyone who passed you on the street did their utmost to help you out? Not for long I wouldn't think. Actually, you're right, but not for the reason you think. If everyone gave money to beggars every-time they saw one, pretty soon we would have nothing but beggars.

I disagree. If everyone is willingly and of their own volition giving money to beggars every time they saw one in an effort to make things better (note that the post is not about any sort of mandatory giving or a government program or anything else of the sort) it seems silly to conclude that everyone, or even most people, would then become beggars.

On the flip side, "If NO ONE gives to beggars there won't be any beggars!" is also correct, but not for the reason given. Reality is that most beggars would die relatively quickly because they're not there by choice or because they think that begging to live is better than finding a job. Yes, a few are there by choice for one reason or another, but I really hate the world where people choose to let the honest ones dies to spite the few freeloaders.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#24

Post by SilasX »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #17
Tichy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, it isn't really working :-) But I think most beggars are probably mentally deranged, so that they are incapable of receiving the benefits. Also there are now proposals to pay a base income to everyone, without fuss, but it is doubtful if it will ever be implemented. And nobody knows what would be the effect.

Really? No one knows what the effect would be of paying people a base income regardless of whether or not they work? I think we've seen ample evidence over the last century of exactly what the effect would be.

Where? Most of the programs you probably have in mind stop paying you once you stop doing irresponsible crap. That has fundamentally different incentive effects than a guaranteed income that pays irrespective how responsible you are or how much you work. For example it would not impose a high effective marginal tax rate on those who work a part-time job (like unemployment benefits or welfare do).

Its effect would be more like that of Social Security (with untaxed benefits, and judged purely from the standpoint of post-retirement).

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#25

Post by jordanvisco »

kstenerud wrote: post #14

"Would it be possible to be a beggar if everyone who passed you on the street did their utmost to help you out?" Absolutely. It would become so lucrative to be a beggar that we'd see a veritable explosion of beggars in no time.

You don't think you'd stop begging at some point and try to do something useful with your life if EVERYONE was nice to you and tried to help you out? I know I would but maybe I'm different. Maybe I have too much confidence in mankind and not enough respect for incentives.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#26

Post by phuff »

LogicHoleFlaw wrote: post #12
phuff wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this day and age even if you are afraid they're going to spend the money on booze you can buy them a gift card to a nearby restaurant...

...which promptly can be sold for cash money.

On the beggar black market? :) I guess so... Seems like most of them would probably just use it for food, though.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#27

Post by Tichy »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #17
Tichy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, it isn't really working :-) But I think most beggars are probably mentally deranged, so that they are incapable of receiving the benefits. Also there are now proposals to pay a base income to everyone, without fuss, but it is doubtful if it will ever be implemented. And nobody knows what would be the effect.

Really? No one knows what the effect would be of paying people a base income regardless of whether or not they work? I think we've seen ample evidence over the last century of exactly what the effect would be.

What are you referring to? Personally I think unchecked population growth might be a result, but it isn't certain. Or maybe the base income would just cancel out (all goods would become so much more expensive that the base income would have little effect).

Also some say that the social security in Germany is in fact equivalent to a base income.

Communism, if you mean that, is something completely different.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#28

Post by kstenerud »

jordanvisco wrote: post #25
kstenerud wrote: post #14

"Would it be possible to be a beggar if everyone who passed you on the street did their utmost to help you out?" Absolutely. It would become so lucrative to be a beggar that we'd see a veritable explosion of beggars in no time.

You don't think you'd stop begging at some point and try to do something useful with your life if EVERYONE was nice to you and tried to help you out? I know I would but maybe I'm different. Maybe I have too much confidence in mankind and not enough respect for incentives.

Or maybe you just make the common mistake of assuming that everyone else thinks the same way you do.

I'll share a little story about a friend of mine. His son came crying to him one day because his homework wasn't done, so his wife did the child's homework (to ensure that his grades didn't drop as a result of his negligence). 3 months later, both parents were doing ALL of this child's homework, because he'd realized that if he didn't work, someone else would do the work for him. He could sit around playing video games all day (yes, that's exactly what he did) and anything unpleasant or difficult was handled by other people (his parents).

That is, until his teacher figured it out. While his homework was always done impeccably, his performance on tests were abysmal. The teacher rightfully berated the parents, and not a moment too soon.

A second example comes via an old co-worker of mine who spent a large part of his career under communist rule, but was absolutely disgusted at his co-workers. Everyone did the bare minimum because there was no incentive to perform or excel (everyone got paid the same regardless). And so naturally, anyone aspiring to greatness and having some ambition left for a country where performance was rewarded.

You see similar effects in well entrenched union jobs.

Re: Why I'm considering giving to beggars.

#30

Post by masterzora »

kstenerud wrote: post #28
jordanvisco wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think you'd stop begging at some point and try to do something useful with your life if EVERYONE was nice to you and tried to help you out? I know I would but maybe I'm different. Maybe I have too much confidence in mankind and not enough respect for incentives.

Or maybe you just make the common mistake of assuming that everyone else thinks the same way you do. I'll share a little story about a friend of mine. His son came crying to him one day because his homework wasn't done, so his wife did the child's homework (to ensure that his grades didn't drop as a result of his negligence). 3 months later, both parents were doing ALL of this child's homework, because he'd realized…

Or maybe you just make the common mistake of assuming that everyone else thinks the same way you do.

And you're not doing the same?

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