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Friendship Forever

secretorum.life

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Re: Friendship Forever

#21

Post by briga »

fruit2020 wrote: post #14
zwkrt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.

You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.

How exactly do a couple funny looks from strangers prevent you from enjoying being straight? If you were gay would you get mad at people for assuming you're straight? You can't control what people think of you, so it's hardly sensible to base your enjoyment of life on their opinions.

Re: Friendship Forever

#22

Post by jimkleiber »

zwkrt wrote: post #17
JetAlone wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".

Quoted post unavailable.

I feel pretty frustrated when I hear it labeled as a "mental health problem." For me it sounds like fear maybe stemming from a past experience where he may have been quite vulnerable and got really hurt and wants to avoid feeling so hurt again. And in that framing, I think most of us experience this in different realms of life. I think why I have such strong reactions to "mental health problem" is that I get the impression it says "there's something wrong with you" and may make the person feel more alienated, instead of showing them I too may experience something similar.

Re: Friendship Forever

#23

Post by zwkrt »

jimkleiber wrote: post #18
zwkrt wrote: post #3

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about thei…

I'm a guy and have been focused on building tools to explore emotions for like 10 years. I think a lot of us men lack intimacy with close friends, especially emotional, because we lack it with ourselves. The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to…

I think that’s an honorable goal. I like the swimming pool analogy. Some people and cultures are just so much more guarded when it comes to addressing their feelings with others. Even basic-level friend feelings of appreciation, compersion, and annoyance that are present in most all friend relationships. As a result connections can only go so deep and peoples’ friendships can feel empty and unfulfilling. The best part of having friends should be that you can be who you are sand say what you mean, but I see many people in my life for whom this is seemingly not possible. I called out the straights in my original post but it really crosses sexuality and gender, as you note!

Re: Friendship Forever

#24

Post by pmarreck »

zwkrt wrote: post #3

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about thei…

I'm a pretty affectionate (straight) dude, but I also came from a pretty affectionate family (German culture, parents were U.S. immigrants), and in particular between my father and I (I kiss him on the cheek goodbye for example). I hug everyone hello and goodbye, it feels nice. There's no fear of gayness, heck I have a couple gay friends I hug but they know my orientation so it's fine lol.

Looking at these photos, it does seem more close than I'd be comfortable with, especially the intertwined-leg photos, that seems a step beyond "mere" hand-holding lol. Or maybe it's not? Eye of the beholder I guess!

Re: Friendship Forever

#25

Post by pmarreck »

JetAlone wrote: post #16
zwkrt wrote: post #3

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about thei…

I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".

Did you grow up without physical intimacy/closeness from your parents or in particular your father?

Re: Friendship Forever

#26

Post by tifik »

zwkrt wrote: post #12
anon291 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As awareness of homosexuality and acceptance of it spreads, friendly measures like this between platonic friends become less common. This is not a moral judgement, just an observation. People don't want to be seen or feel like they're seen as something theyre not.

The idea that gay people having more social standing and more rights has somehow ruined straight relationships is laughable. You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?

> ruined

Parent didnt say or even suggest that.

> when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands

He's making an observation. Have you been to Turkey at around the same and have a different experience?

Re: Friendship Forever

#27

Post by dmitriid »

zwkrt wrote: post #12
anon291 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As awareness of homosexuality and acceptance of it spreads, friendly measures like this between platonic friends become less common. This is not a moral judgement, just an observation. People don't want to be seen or feel like they're seen as something theyre not.

The idea that gay people having more social standing and more rights has somehow ruined straight relationships is laughable. You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?

You are completely misreading what the person said.

Holding hands between people of the same gender is now seen as a sign of a gay relationship (aka: couples holding friends). Therefore holding hands is no longer the sign of just friendship.

This is especially true in countries like Turkey where being gay is not really accepted.

Re: Friendship Forever

#28

Post by pmarreck »

fruit2020 wrote: post #14
zwkrt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.

You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.

> I din’t want to be perceived as gay

I'm pretty sure that unless they catch you making out with a dude, the jury will forever be out on whether you're gay or not, I think this is between you and your insecurity frankly

I've gotten more suspicious looks walking into a place alone than I have with 1 friend.

Re: Friendship Forever

#29

Post by unity1001 »

zwkrt wrote: post #13
unity1001 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. In Angloamerican countries, maybe. What you call 'vulnerability and affection' is a requirement for social conduct in Mediterranean, especially Latin countries. You wont find people who behave distant like in the US, or gasp cold like in the Nordic countries. They would be either foreigners, who would be identi…

Agreed, I’m definitely coming at this as an American. Even more so as a Seattleite, a place known for its relative social coldness even by US standards.

I was told that it wasn't always this bad in the US either. A few decades ago, people were warmer and they socialized more. It looks like in the past few decades, social alienation and fear have set into the American society and started making people ever more distant from each other. Likely because of the stress and angst caused by economic insecurity, consumerism, the ensuing social and political conflicts etc etc.

Re: Friendship Forever

#30

Post by TranquilMarmot »

The part about remote work removing a driving force for friendships hit me pretty hard. In February of 2020, I had a dozen or so really close friends that I would see every day. We would laugh together, get food together, and work on hard problems together.

In March of 2020, we all started working remotely and I haven't seen any of them since. Even if I wanted to, almost all of them have moved to other cities, states, or countries. Most left the company we were at (including me). We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have.

Now, I work with a team of people who are completely scattered geographically. Maybe once every few months I will see one of them in person if they happen to be in the area. They feel like strictly co-workers- I don't think we've ever really laughed or just goofed around that much, and certainly aren't hanging out outside of work hours. I wouldn't be able to call one of them up in a time of crisis and ask for help.

I miss my friends, and the simple solution would be "go find new ones!" but, like this essay points out, that's not exactly easy and there's a "blind spot" about how hard it can be. There's also still a pandemic going on- I haven't caught COVID-19 yet and don't plan on it. Any sort of friendship that would involve physically being near other people on a regular basis is just asking for it. To me, getting sick is not worth having a friend, even though it is wrecking my mental health. I know that equation is different for other people.

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