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Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

nytimes.com

21–27 of 27 posts

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The largest environmental group, Greenpeace, has literally invaded a number of nuclear plants to protest government plans to permit new plants. Have similar protests in coal mines or fracking or oil wells or on fuel tankers ever done anything to slow down the fossil fuel industry? Did they send state sponsored terrorists to bomb an EDF ship and get away with it completely other than throwing a couple of patsies und…

>>It's actually kind of heart warming that you think environmentalists have so much power. Why do you think they chose not to use it to stop coal, plastic or beef? Your narrative doesn't line up with reality. In Germany, the primary political force behind the decision to shut down the country's nuclear plants was the national Green Party. A similar dynamic is seen across numerous countries in the EU. Greenpeace and o…

Again. If the greens are so powerful as to single handedly set the policy of a government whose leader was working for a russian gas company, why is beef, plastic, coal, and driving still a thing? Why did they make a massive investment in gas and cancel large portions of the renewable program? Why is a massive multi trillion dollar industry backed by the militaries of the most powerful countries in the world powerless in the face of a party that can barely hold a few seats?

The reality is the PWR industry is just a bunch of liars, grifters and scammers that came into a cash cow as part of a program to force tax payers to fund weapons programs, and now they're crying because they didn't get to have a turn raping and destroying the planet and forcing every government on the planet to be subservient to Framatome, Urenco and Rosatom. Fossil fuel interests are amplifying their voice because they know every dollar spent on PWRs is a watt of fossil fuels that won't be replaced.

> We'll have such reactors long before we run out of uranium. And once operational, they will be able to use the stored waste from the non breeder reactors as fuel.

The most optimistic programs have breeders just barely producing a surplus in an experimental reactor in the late 2030s. You can't produce 100t of fuel for a PWR in a reactor that produces 30t and needs 28t for itself. PWRs are completely irrelevant for power generation and if your goal is to promote nuclear power rather than grift more money you'd be pushing for completely defunding all of the reactors in construction and planning and putting the money into breeder development.

> and especially if that were combined with next gen nuclear tech got anywhere close to as much funding as solar/wind for deploying generation potential, the technology would have rapidly progressed, and today would dominate energy sources.

It did. It's had trillions of dollars poured into it. Nothing happened. Noone in the nuclear industry wants it to happen because it would end the grift, and no-one in the military or government wants it to happen because any country with one can build bombs. China's probably the only exception because they mostly use their small minority of nuclear reactors for power (with a little bit of geopolitical domination on the side). The similar trillions poured into renewables created working power infrastructure the whole time, and now the cost is approaching the cost of just the steam generator portion.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consistent pattern of everything he's ever said on the topic: https://www.desmog.com/michael-shellenberger/ Like you he claims to be pro-nuclear but is also scathing about government subsidies and expensive power. Which doesn't add up, not for two decades if you're paying attention, and certainly not for the last five years even if you haven't. Renewables are cheap power. It's like his audience is a couple of dec…

>>Renewables are cheap power. Renewables are not cheap power. "True cost of using wind and solar to meet demand was $272 and $472 per MWh" https://web.archive.org/web/20220916003958/https://files.ame... >>His very pro natural gas stance is also a weird anomaly Natural gas is cheap and cleaner than coal.

Your 'study' by fossil fuel interest using flawed statistics and outdated data that triple and quadruple counts costs that don't even show up until renewable penetration is 3x the current amounts and are already being internalised by hybrid and internal storage programs means nothing.

It does make for a pretty good demonstration of the type of shilling Shellenberger does though, so props on that part.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Renewables are cheap power. Renewables are not cheap power. "True cost of using wind and solar to meet demand was $272 and $472 per MWh" https://web.archive.org/web/20220916003958/https://files.ame... >>His very pro natural gas stance is also a weird anomaly Natural gas is cheap and cleaner than coal.

Your 'study' by fossil fuel interest using flawed statistics and outdated data that triple and quadruple counts costs that don't even show up until renewable penetration is 3x the current amounts and are already being internalised by hybrid and internal storage programs means nothing. It does make for a pretty good demonstration of the type of shilling Shellenberger does though, so props on that part.

Plenty of studies look at renewables through rose colored glasses and are funded by groups with ideological agendas and financial conflicts of interest. This study is quite sober compared to them.

The study projects out the costs of going 100% renewable in Minnesota as the current plan calls for, so the assumption of 3x penetration is appropriate. I also don't see the basis for your claim that it triples/quadruples costs.

>>by fossil fuel interest

Which fossil fuel interests?

The study says that Minnesota could achieve the 100% zero carbon goal without unduly burdering the state's residents if it depends on hydroelectric and nuclear, neither of which is fossil fuel.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your 'study' by fossil fuel interest using flawed statistics and outdated data that triple and quadruple counts costs that don't even show up until renewable penetration is 3x the current amounts and are already being internalised by hybrid and internal storage programs means nothing. It does make for a pretty good demonstration of the type of shilling Shellenberger does though, so props on that part.

Plenty of studies look at renewables through rose colored glasses and are funded by groups with ideological agendas and financial conflicts of interest. This study is quite sober compared to them. The study projects out the costs of going 100% renewable in Minnesota as the current plan calls for, so the assumption of 3x penetration is appropriate. I also don't see the basis for your claim that it triples/quadruples c…

If your 'study' is counting costs for storage (which is load balancing), and for curtailment (which is load balancing) and for load balancing and is charging all three on curtailed energy. And is doing at all at double current prices rather than projected future prices. Then maybe 'sober' isn't the best adjective.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consistent pattern of everything he's ever said on the topic: https://www.desmog.com/michael-shellenberger/ Like you he claims to be pro-nuclear but is also scathing about government subsidies and expensive power. Which doesn't add up, not for two decades if you're paying attention, and certainly not for the last five years even if you haven't. Renewables are cheap power. It's like his audience is a couple of dec…

>>Renewables are cheap power. Renewables are not cheap power. "True cost of using wind and solar to meet demand was $272 and $472 per MWh" https://web.archive.org/web/20220916003958/https://files.ame... >>His very pro natural gas stance is also a weird anomaly Natural gas is cheap and cleaner than coal.

That's a really bad report.

"We don't need Californian solutions in Minnesota" is not the kind of argument you want to be making if you want to be taken seriously as an objective source.

Why isn't renewables a Texas solution? They got help from someone in Texas to write this and Texas has lots of renewables.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It's actually kind of heart warming that you think environmentalists have so much power. Why do you think they chose not to use it to stop coal, plastic or beef? Your narrative doesn't line up with reality. In Germany, the primary political force behind the decision to shut down the country's nuclear plants was the national Green Party. A similar dynamic is seen across numerous countries in the EU. Greenpeace and o…

Again. If the greens are so powerful as to single handedly set the policy of a government whose leader was working for a russian gas company, why is beef, plastic, coal, and driving still a thing? Why did they make a massive investment in gas and cancel large portions of the renewable program? Why is a massive multi trillion dollar industry backed by the militaries of the most powerful countries in the world powerles…

>>If the greens are so powerful as to single handedly set the policy of a government whose leader was working for a russian gas company, why is beef, plastic, coal, and driving still a thing

Because greens don't have the political capital to institute a zero tolerance policy toward fossil fuels, and probably don't want to implement such a policy as it would mean their standard of living would regress 80 years.

Freezing nuclear power expansion and phasing out existing plants on the other can be done without an immediate economic cataclysmic that would make it both politically infeasible, and perhaps for the greens themselves, undesirable.

If the greens weren't powerful, how do you explain Germany's Green Party successfully pushing to get the country's nuclear power plants decommissioned?

>>The most optimistic programs have breeders just barely producing a surplus in an experimental reactor in the late 2030s.

My understanding was that breeder reactors are already producing surpluses and the only issue being that they're not economical because they have higher capital costs and it's cheaper to just enrich or use more uranium.

What's your source suggesting otherwise?

>>It did. It's had trillions of dollars poured into it. Nothing happened.

I know this is not true but I'm open to seeing any credible source that proves me otherwise.

Re: Switzerland Is Paying Poorer Nations to Cut Emissions on Its Behalf

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again. If the greens are so powerful as to single handedly set the policy of a government whose leader was working for a russian gas company, why is beef, plastic, coal, and driving still a thing? Why did they make a massive investment in gas and cancel large portions of the renewable program? Why is a massive multi trillion dollar industry backed by the militaries of the most powerful countries in the world powerles…

>>If the greens are so powerful as to single handedly set the policy of a government whose leader was working for a russian gas company, why is beef, plastic, coal, and driving still a thing Because greens don't have the political capital to institute a zero tolerance policy toward fossil fuels, and probably don't want to implement such a policy as it would mean their standard of living would regress 80 years. Freezi…

> Because greens don't have the political capital to institute a zero tolerance policy toward fossil fuels, and probably don't want to implement such a policy as it would mean their standard of living would regress 80 years.

So you agree that the power to stop it didn't come from the greens but from general political will and the complete lack of any economic or practical viability? Good.

> My understanding was that breeder reactors are already producing surpluses and the only issue being that they're not economical because they have higher capital costs and it's cheaper to just enrich or use more uranium.

Give me a single example of a breeder reactor running a full load of fuel without prolonged shutdowns for repairs or to deal with it catching fire in breeding mode and coming out with more. It hasn't happened. A reactor that could, in principle, breed if it was operated completely differently like BN-800 whicb has the primary function of destroying plutonium doesn't count.

> I know this is not true but I'm open to seeing any credible source that proves me otherwise.

Phenix, Superphenix, the french MOX program (which existed only to serve Phenix and cost even more), IFR, the BN series.. the list is very long. They cost tens of billions each.

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