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Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

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Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#21

Post by bayindirh »

trelane wrote: post #17
bayindirh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> We're running Linux on computers bundled with Windows out of the box. No all of us are. Fortunately, it's not the 90s, let alone the early 00s. We have the option of buying Linux preinstalled. It would be nice if we didn't collectively squander the opportunity. The wider point, though, is spot on. Hardware should obey its owner, not the company or companies that made it. Fortunately, the hardware that best supports…

> We have the option of buying Linux preinstalled. It would be nice if we didn't collectively squander the opportunity.

Of course you're right, but all hardware is certified for Windows at the design stage, and only a subset (EliteBook, ThinkPad, XPS, etc.) is designed and verified against Linux kernel. Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able to function on these systems.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#22

Post by zinekeller »

adrian_b wrote: post #16
zinekeller wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that there's something weird that trips the Linux kernel, but at least it's possible to boot third-party OSes.

It is very good that it is possible to boot non-Windows OSes. Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display. There was not long ago a presentation from Lenovo about the support of Linux on their products. They make a laptop with the same Qualcomm chip. Afte…

> Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display

Unfortunately you're right, reverse-engineering Adreno would take monumental effort.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#23

Post by bayindirh »

belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

When installing other operating systems to hardware platforms became abusing such platforms?

What we expect next? BSA to raid my home because I run Linux on my Microsoft branded hardware, or connect Microsoft mouse to a Linux box?

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#24

Post by tyingq »

adrian_b wrote: post #16
zinekeller wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that there's something weird that trips the Linux kernel, but at least it's possible to boot third-party OSes.

It is very good that it is possible to boot non-Windows OSes. Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display. There was not long ago a presentation from Lenovo about the support of Linux on their products. They make a laptop with the same Qualcomm chip. Afte…

> For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display

Patrick Wildt posted the boot log for OpenBSD if anyone's curious what else OpenBSD sees on the device (and doesn't see).

https://t.co/DCKHBUyvJZ

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#25

Post by trelane »

bayindirh wrote: post #21
trelane wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're running Linux on computers bundled with Windows out of the box. No all of us are. Fortunately, it's not the 90s, let alone the early 00s. We have the option of buying Linux preinstalled. It would be nice if we didn't collectively squander the opportunity. The wider point, though, is spot on. Hardware should obey its owner, not the company or companies that made it. Fortunately, the hardware that best supports…

> We have the option of buying Linux preinstalled. It would be nice if we didn't collectively squander the opportunity. Of course you're right, but all hardware is certified for Windows at the design stage, and only a subset (EliteBook, ThinkPad, XPS, etc.) is designed and verified against Linux kernel. Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able…

I don't think it's true that all hardware is certified for Windows.

Yes, most hardware is not designed nor verified for running against Linux. Most hardware doesn't run OSX either.

The solution, as with Mac, is to only buy systems with Linux pre-installed and supported.

> Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able to function on these systems.

Yes, exactly. Just like with Macs, one should buy systems where the firmware (including ACPI) is designed to run Linux. Hackintoshes are interesting, but few seriously consider that the main way of running OSX.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#26

Post by zozbot234 »

zinekeller wrote: post #22
adrian_b wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very good that it is possible to boot non-Windows OSes. Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display. There was not long ago a presentation from Lenovo about the support of Linux on their products. They make a laptop with the same Qualcomm chip. Afte…

> Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display Unfortunately you're right, reverse-engineering Adreno would take monumental effort.

The freedreno driver supports some Adreno GPU's already, so adding support for this ought to be quite possible.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#28

Post by pjmlp »

orthoxerox wrote: post #13

> What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these devices. If people start buying MS Dev Kits to run Linux CI agents on them this defeats the whole purpose of having a dev kit: getting more people to write programs on and for Windows 11 on ARM.

Of course, apparently only UNIX folks are developers.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#29

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #15
orthoxerox wrote: post #13

> What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these devices. If people start buying MS Dev Kits to run Linux CI agents on them this defeats the whole purpose of having a dev kit: getting more people to write programs on and for Windows 11 on ARM.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

It is a platform for Windows Developers.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#30

Post by contextfree »

realgeniushere wrote: post #10
contextfree wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article seems like less a critique and more of an informational report of this person's experience.

> Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these devices. It’s not a scathing attack or…

Fair enough, but those were a couple sentences out of a multipage article. I just get tired of comments for any article that involves Microsoft in some way turning into generic arguments over whether people should like or hate Microsoft, overshadowing the actual content of the article. The arguments tend to rehash the same tropes over and over and are pretty tedious and not interesting.

But I guess I'm just adding to the problem by turning it into an equally tedious meta-argument. I'll stop now ...

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