Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#21

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #18

_ea1k wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that he subscribes to the theory that companies use questions that would normally be taught in college to filter out older applicants. Ie, some assume that time since college isa major factor in people knowing these answers. Personally, I find it terribly unlikely that any such filtering is intentional on any level.

There are several operational benefits to fresh graduates from the perspective of the hiring organization: - What little experience they have is effectively all relevant to the job and hence easier to justify paying for. If a neophyte can do 80% of a veteran's work for 50% of the pay, it's a tempting tradeoff. A software veteran's second decade of experience may not be worth the increased sticker price if you're aski…

That is simply... depressing, not to mention unwise.

The neophyte may be able to do 80% of the veteran's job, but that's the easily-replaceable 80%. If I'm hiring for a position that requires experience, I know that the last 20% is worth paying for. Someone is going to have to do that 20% and if it's not the new hire, then why are we hiring him?

Personal entanglements? I have never had any idea about the family status of anyone I've hired unless they were wearing a wedding ring. I don't need to know and I'm certainly not going to open the firm up to a lawsuit by asking. HR is the only one who will know, and HR does not get to veto what the software dev. interviewers say unless the candidate wants more $$ than the position offers. And even then, they'll come back to us and ask if we think he's worth it.

Compensation? Again, the interviewers don't care or know. And really does any company with half a brain care? If you're being hired, it's because we expect that you will make the company orders of magnitude more than we pay you. In that light, trying to push for the maximum salary in the pay band is really not a big deal. It's in the budget after all.

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#22

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #14

NegativeK wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand; can you elaborate on that?

My understanding is that according to US labor law, computer programming is not one of the limited group of employment positions for which a degree is (or can be) required. That is, coders can't be required to have a degree, so HR designs questions that are most likely to only be answerable with university-style training.

Do you have a citation for this? I can't imagine that it could ever be the case. The employer can set whatever job requirements they want as long as they do not discriminate against protected classes. Non-degree holders are not a protected class.

I'm far from an expert, but I have had to take classes in Employment Law and interviewing practices. This is not the kind of thing they would forget to mention!

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#23

Post by ftwinnovations » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:13 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #12

throwaway122011 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you say portfolio do you mean having a github account or a blog or a live website running? what kinds of projects should I have?

The goal is to regularly provide proof to both your professional network and to selected potential employers that you are highly competent and will be a decided advantage to their organization. Some people don't know what github is and won't care, others really like live sites even if they're modest, and still others really just want to see resume bullet points about dollars saved / created. Eventually you can put al…

As a small company owner I want to completely endorse this comment. These "proofs" of a developers skills and technical interest are the hard requirements I have before conducting any interview. Naturally the "social proof" is also important but less common and more difficult to attain.

Even tiny personal projects demonstrating ones interest in keeping up with newer hot technologies like node, redis, backbone, etc mean a lot.

tl;dr Having a set of quality personal projects (github, live, whatever) is absolutely critical.

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#24

Post by itmag » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:15 PM UTC

Comments here seem to be about the importance of demonstrating competence.

While this is of course important, I feel that it's equally important to make sure you actually want to work in an organization. This means fitting in, tolerating corp BS/insanity well, being expected to tone down the cowboy ethos, and appearing productive at all times. In other words, being the oft-mentioned "team player".

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#25

Post by dpritchett » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #21

dpritchett wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several operational benefits to fresh graduates from the perspective of the hiring organization: - What little experience they have is effectively all relevant to the job and hence easier to justify paying for. If a neophyte can do 80% of a veteran's work for 50% of the pay, it's a tempting tradeoff. A software veteran's second decade of experience may not be worth the increased sticker price if you're aski…

That is simply... depressing, not to mention unwise. The neophyte may be able to do 80% of the veteran's job, but that's the easily-replaceable 80%. If I'm hiring for a position that requires experience, I know that the last 20% is worth paying for. Someone is going to have to do that 20% and if it's not the new hire, then why are we hiring him? Personal entanglements? I have never had any idea about the family statu…

You're right, of course. I was merely attempting to provide a devil's advocate's view. Perhaps I should have said "rationalizations" rather than "benefits".

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#26

Post by mikeklaas » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 9:58 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #15

NegativeK wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand; can you elaborate on that?

Placing a particularly high value on undergraduate-level CS theory as a pre-employment hurdle provides a market advantage to people with fresh undergraduate training. This coincidentally depresses the marketability (for a certain class of job) of older workers and demographics less likely to achieve a degree from a top N computer science program. Certainly you could read between the lines and say that observably favo…

Another explanation is that is it very difficult to gauge someone's programming ability from a technical interview. Asking theory questions is a useful (albeit imperfect) proxy.

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#27

Post by Jach » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 10:13 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #22

rhizome wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that according to US labor law, computer programming is not one of the limited group of employment positions for which a degree is (or can be) required. That is, coders can't be required to have a degree, so HR designs questions that are most likely to only be answerable with university-style training.

Do you have a citation for this? I can't imagine that it could ever be the case. The employer can set whatever job requirements they want as long as they do not discriminate against protected classes. Non-degree holders are not a protected class. I'm far from an expert, but I have had to take classes in Employment Law and interviewing practices. This is not the kind of thing they would forget to mention!

I think he might be suggesting that with hiring coders-in-general, it's not necessary that the employer must only hire degree-holders. This is in contrast to hiring an elementary school teacher, where by law the applicant must possess credentials x/y/z even if the school thinks the applicant is fine without those.

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#28

Post by Aqua_Geek » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 10:22 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #21

dpritchett wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several operational benefits to fresh graduates from the perspective of the hiring organization: - What little experience they have is effectively all relevant to the job and hence easier to justify paying for. If a neophyte can do 80% of a veteran's work for 50% of the pay, it's a tempting tradeoff. A software veteran's second decade of experience may not be worth the increased sticker price if you're aski…

That is simply... depressing, not to mention unwise. The neophyte may be able to do 80% of the veteran's job, but that's the easily-replaceable 80%. If I'm hiring for a position that requires experience, I know that the last 20% is worth paying for. Someone is going to have to do that 20% and if it's not the new hire, then why are we hiring him? Personal entanglements? I have never had any idea about the family statu…

> If I'm hiring for a position that requires experience, I know that the last 20% is worth paying for. Someone is going to have to do that 20% and if it's not the new hire, then why are we hiring him?

Sadly, not everyone shares your view. Many seem to forget about that last 20% and just focus on the 50% savings. I've seen it happen to more than one senior dev...

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#29

Post by jseliger » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 10:30 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #15

NegativeK wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand; can you elaborate on that?

Placing a particularly high value on undergraduate-level CS theory as a pre-employment hurdle provides a market advantage to people with fresh undergraduate training. This coincidentally depresses the marketability (for a certain class of job) of older workers and demographics less likely to achieve a degree from a top N computer science program. Certainly you could read between the lines and say that observably favo…

This coincidentally depresses the marketability (for a certain class of job) of older workers and demographics less likely to achieve a degree from a top N computer science program.

If those older workers and others are equally or more skilled than the younger ones implied by your question, smart companies will realize the discrepancy and hire them.

In addition, if older workers know that firms place a "high value on undergraduate-level CS theory," they should probably spend some time learning. . . undergraduate-level CS theory.

You can in fact see this in action in other areas—for example: http://www.economist.com/node/17311877 .

Re: Getting a job in software development: A Reddit discussion round-up

#30

Post by microarchitect » Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 11:10 PM UTC

karamazov wrote: post #8

microarchitect wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowledge on these subjects is easy to pick up, taking you a few days of study at the most. I doubt you can pick up a solid understanding of just the first 15 or so chapters of CLRS in a few months, let alone days.

Coming from a pure math background, I find CLRS to be very easy to read. YMMV based on prior experience, but it's not at all unreasonable to learn the basics in a week or two if you're studying it full-time.

I'm not talking about "picking up the basics". I doubt that level of knowledge will get you a job offer from Google.

I'm extremely skeptical about your claim. Just reading through the chapters will take the better part of a day. Working through the exercises and thinking about what each of these algorithms will take much longer.