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Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

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Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#21

Post by brandnewlow »

fallentimes wrote: post #14
aston wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious whether you'd be willing to share some of those eye-opening insights with us.

Wouldn't really call them insights, but sure. HHI 60k, Black, 2.1 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 16 - Accepted. HHI 50k, White, 3.2 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 22 - Rejected. Most were variations of that. That is, less qualified applicants in similar economic situations were admitted solely because of race. Obviously I knew these practices existed (oh hai Division 1 athletics), I was just surprised h…

I hear ya. I spent some time as an admission officer at an Ivy and the conversations we'd have over and over again just got to me. We were building a class and had just a dizzying array of pieces to work with each year. This, coupled with our need to have every group, region and interest under the sun represented inevitably led to exchanges like this one: "This student seems smart relative to other (insert minority group)." The choices made were hard and required us to reduce people to numbers, colors and legacies. What an eye-opener. I feel I've got a leg up on anyone when I apply for stuff from now on.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#24

Post by halo »

ajross wrote: post #15
sanj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in…

Indeed. Now add a bunch of chest-pounding chicks writing self-described "controversial rants" about the utter ridiculousness of having a group just for men to feel good about themselves. Hell, the tone of the parent article alone is enough to justify this group. Guys: we already dominate the industry, and will for the rest of our careers. There's no need to be jerks about it. If you don't see the need for a group to…

I find your reply objectionable.

I believe you mischaracterised my argument or completely misjudged my tone. At no point did I suggest the original author's point-of-view was "utterly ridiculous", just that I found it frustrating and to try and emphatically explain the reasons why. There is a world of difference there. The introductory comments about it being a "controversial rant" have been mischaracterised - the idea was to try and minimise any offence to the original author, that I knew it was slightly hijacking the thread, that it may be a fringe viewpoint and that the author would probably disagree with my point-of-view. At no point was I aiming for "chest-beating", nor do I believe that was the tone of the post, but I do apologise if it came across as such. I do believe, however, that had the roles been reversed that I would not be offended if someone put their arguments forward as I did to support their point of view.

I also quite obviously disagree that I'm a "jerk", and I firmly believe that my opinion still matters despite apparently being the "wrong sex" to be able to have one on this matter and that this sort of discussion is not and should not be out of bounds.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#25

Post by jwilliams »

halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

> I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things.

I'm sure you believe this yourself, you behave like this, and you have probably witnessed this a great deal - but this doesn't necessarily generalize.

However, there has been a lot of (empirical) research into this area and it's shown that this still is an issue. For example: http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#26

Post by bokonist »

brandnewlow wrote: post #21
fallentimes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't really call them insights, but sure. HHI 60k, Black, 2.1 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 16 - Accepted. HHI 50k, White, 3.2 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 22 - Rejected. Most were variations of that. That is, less qualified applicants in similar economic situations were admitted solely because of race. Obviously I knew these practices existed (oh hai Division 1 athletics), I was just surprised h…

I hear ya. I spent some time as an admission officer at an Ivy and the conversations we'd have over and over again just got to me. We were building a class and had just a dizzying array of pieces to work with each year. This, coupled with our need to have every group, region and interest under the sun represented inevitably led to exchanges like this one: "This student seems smart relative to other ( insert minority…

I'm curious. What happens if someone lies on their application about their race? Do you verify in any way? Would you disqualify them if/when you saw them in person? I've wondered why, with so many people trying to get an edge in admissions, more applicants don't claim "one drop".

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#27

Post by bootload »

halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

"... I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things ..."

Maybe because you are a member (myself included) of a homogeneous monk-like cloistered society that meets daily with your own kind where everyone knows the secret hand-shake and acknowledges you. Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore if you are different you are going to be side-lined.

I guess the argument killer here is "put your hands up all those who would trade places as a man to be a women in a male dominated - some say one of the last - in the software industry?".

Your argument of course is not a new one. The best example I can think of is hiring musicians for Orchestra. You would think that gender would not be a problem. Surely a musician who is good enough would get a job in a Orchestra based on musical ability in the "12 minute recital" alone? Yet Orchestras have been a male dominated industry ~ http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 Read here more on the debate on Orchestral selection and among other things gender.

Is this issue another structural issue within Startups where gender dominance is only skills based? Or are there entry hurdles that can be knocked down with some small changes? Don't we all want as many high quality entrepreneurs and Startups to florish? Or is it a "foo only club?" where you can join in as long as you are one of "us"?

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#28

Post by zasz »

halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

I'm all for such groups targeted exclusively for minorities, even if there were no longer any discrimination.

Suppose you're a member of minority M, looking to get into group G, which is dominated by members of group D, who are all significantly different in some very obvious way. Wouldn't you personally like a little reassurance from someone else in M who's made it in G, that you too can do well? It's just plain human insecurity. As a girl who takes a lot of CS classes, even though I never experience any hostility from the guys in the classes, it just feels a little weird. I certainly do feel more insecure. Like it or not, just because so many more guys are in these classes, girls form a stereotype of CS as being something for guys and not for them. They have to hear that message from a girl, a living counterexample, to shake that stereotype. Being outnumbered by guys everywhere does nothing but reinforce stereotypes.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#29

Post by halo »

sanj wrote: post #13
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in…

I'll admit that I haven't personally taken such a class - sadly it's very unlikely I'll be able to do so.

I would find it very sad if that you described happened, though. I think a male point of view would be valuable on a discussion of an issue like proto-feminism, for example. The idea that someone would get shouted down from a discussion for having a dissenting point of view to me seems bizarre assuming they facilitate the discussion, but perhaps that's just me.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#30

Post by Prrometheus »

halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

I think most arguments for "diversity" are bullshyt. However, I can see how otherwise qualified female applicants might feel intimidated by an organization that is 95%+ male. Increasing the number of females in the program could therefore increase the average quality of the founder pool.

But yes, I don't see any worth in "diversity" for its own sake, unless we are talking about a diversity of skill-sets, knowledge, or something else worth talking about.

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