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The Degradation Drug

theamericanscholar.org

21–30 of 79 posts

Re: The Degradation Drug

#21
post #15

The disease casually mentioned ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalitis_lethargica ) in the article is worth looking into as well - a ?virus? that causes coma, that appeared, wreaked havoc (affected ~1M people and killed half) for a decade or so, then disappeared

Yeah, with the possible connection to the Spanish Flu epidemic this gives one pause when considering long covid and covid's neurological effects in general

Re: The Degradation Drug

#22

The article describes its first subject as having been diagnosed with simply "depression", but describes their medication regime as including lithium and lamotrigine which in combination is strongly suggestive of treatment for bipolar depression in particular. Given that the described behavior sounds very much like a manic episode, the article should have explained this connection before attempting to focus the blame…

You severely overestimate the quality of care you would receive in a psychiatrist's office when thinking that lithium and lamotrigine wouldn't be prescribed for no reason. Prescription of pramipexole should have given it away.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#23
> It is a rare case of restless legs syndrome that is severe enough to make the risk of prison time or the sex-offender registry look like a reasonable tradeoff.

While I understand the rest of the article, as someone who has been through opioid-withdrawal induced RLS a few times in my life, this is really downplaying how horrible it is.

The RLS alone would stop me from sleeping for a week or more. You lose your mind. It’s horrific. I can understand why someone with a severe case might be willing to take that risk — though from the sounds of it, a lot of prescribers aren’t explaining that risk to their patients.

As an aside, for those who are unaware, RLS is induced by opioid withdrawal because chronic opioid use disorder/abuse down-regulates your dopamine receptors. Our dopamine pathways have wide reaching effects within our bodies and minds.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#24
post #22

The article describes its first subject as having been diagnosed with simply "depression", but describes their medication regime as including lithium and lamotrigine which in combination is strongly suggestive of treatment for bipolar depression in particular. Given that the described behavior sounds very much like a manic episode, the article should have explained this connection before attempting to focus the blame…

You severely overestimate the quality of care you would receive in a psychiatrist's office when thinking that lithium and lamotrigine wouldn't be prescribed for no reason. Prescription of pramipexole should have given it away.

Probably not no reason, but... yeah.

The article even says later that "[t]he state medical licensing board disciplined the psychiatrist", so I don't understand why people here are critiquing care that was literally censured by the board!

Re: The Degradation Drug

#26

The article describes its first subject as having been diagnosed with simply "depression", but describes their medication regime as including lithium and lamotrigine which in combination is strongly suggestive of treatment for bipolar depression in particular. Given that the described behavior sounds very much like a manic episode, the article should have explained this connection before attempting to focus the blame…

> but describes their medication regime as including lithium and lamotrigine which in combination is strongly suggestive of treatment for bipolar depression in particular.

Quite possible, but both medications are actually used in unipolar depression treatment as well. They wouldn’t be first-line treatments, but it’s not uncommon to see one or both of these tried when the patient can’t tolerate SSRIs for some reason. They are also used to augment SSRIs in many cases.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#27
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about it sounding like a manic episode a lot. If I were to put up an opposing opinion -- some caveats here: cluster B disorders and autism both can include lithium (and symptoms not too dissimilar from mania), lamotrigine too on the BPD front. Mood stabilizers are prescribed in combination for a variety of conditions, I feel like it's a rather large jump to make. Also, Moda and a Benzodiazepine are going to d…

I omitted the Xanax entirely from my previous post because the polypharmacy here is such a mess, but I agree that it probably factors into disinhibition. I don't personally attribute much relevance to modafinil in this instance; while the wakefulness effects are often described mechanistically through dopamine, I have never seen anyone experience any traditional stimulant or dopamine agonist effects from modafinil. M…

> I have never seen anyone experience any traditional stimulant or dopamine agonist effects from modafinil.

What do you mean by traditional stimulant effects? I mean, modafinil is definitely stimulating, even if Wikipedia says it's an "eugeroic". Combines with caffeine pretty badly.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#28
post #22

The article describes its first subject as having been diagnosed with simply "depression", but describes their medication regime as including lithium and lamotrigine which in combination is strongly suggestive of treatment for bipolar depression in particular. Given that the described behavior sounds very much like a manic episode, the article should have explained this connection before attempting to focus the blame…

You severely overestimate the quality of care you would receive in a psychiatrist's office when thinking that lithium and lamotrigine wouldn't be prescribed for no reason. Prescription of pramipexole should have given it away.

In general, it would be difficult to tell with an incomplete patient history whether a psychiatrist prescribing pramipexole for depression was making an irresponsible shot in the dark, or a calculated attempt to address something like treatment-resistant anhedonic depression after a few first lines, an MAOI, and referrals to an endocrinologist and a sleep study failed. That being said, I cannot think of any reasonable scenario that leads to simultaneously prescribing pramipexole and mood stabilizers. Perhaps it's too idealistic of me to hope that the pharmacist filling all three of those (plus two controlled substances...) would have called and asked for an explanation.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#29
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about it sounding like a manic episode a lot. If I were to put up an opposing opinion -- some caveats here: cluster B disorders and autism both can include lithium (and symptoms not too dissimilar from mania), lamotrigine too on the BPD front. Mood stabilizers are prescribed in combination for a variety of conditions, I feel like it's a rather large jump to make. Also, Moda and a Benzodiazepine are going to d…

I omitted the Xanax entirely from my previous post because the polypharmacy here is such a mess, but I agree that it probably factors into disinhibition. I don't personally attribute much relevance to modafinil in this instance; while the wakefulness effects are often described mechanistically through dopamine, I have never seen anyone experience any traditional stimulant or dopamine agonist effects from modafinil. M…

Interesting. One minor note is Moda a DRI too, albeit a weak one.

Re: The Degradation Drug

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I omitted the Xanax entirely from my previous post because the polypharmacy here is such a mess, but I agree that it probably factors into disinhibition. I don't personally attribute much relevance to modafinil in this instance; while the wakefulness effects are often described mechanistically through dopamine, I have never seen anyone experience any traditional stimulant or dopamine agonist effects from modafinil. M…

> I have never seen anyone experience any traditional stimulant or dopamine agonist effects from modafinil. What do you mean by traditional stimulant effects? I mean, modafinil is definitely stimulating, even if Wikipedia says it's an "eugeroic". Combines with caffeine pretty badly.

I meant "stimulant" in the context of traditional dopamine reuptake inhibitors and releasing agents like amphetamine and ritalin which are almost incomparable to less controlled or uncontrolled compounds like modafinil, ephedrine, and caffeine. Even a high dose of caffeine will not produce effects anything like amphetamine. The mechanism of action between amphetamine and caffeine are fundamentally different rather than being a matter of strength. It's unfortunate and misleading that the word stimulant is used for both categories.
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