Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy • Hacker News Board

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#21

Post by ImprovedSilence » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:58 PM UTC

interlagos wrote: post #8

This isn't a "follow-up", per se. Nonetheless, while Android continually works to smooth out the rough edges -- helped along by the march of technology -- this is something that is a bit overblown: Minor jutters of the interface is something that primarily irritates people as a relative thing, not as an absolute thing. If you are a developer or a reviewer and you regularly use an iOS device and an Android device, the…

Perhaps. But once the end user notices the lag compared to their friends device, it very quickly becomes an end users (and very shortly, the platforms) problem. My android lags, and it pisses me off.

per your quote: "It's the same as getting an upgrade to your PC, a new video card, etc. You were perfectly happy before, but relative to your new reality the old one seems subpar, and you overestimate how much it interferes with your enjoyment of the device." Doesn't quite make sense in this market though. It's all about having the fastest, shiniest, device. And if you can't keep up or deliver ever demanding performance increases, you die. If good was good enough, and we didn't care that the next best thing was only marginally better, we'd still be using punch cards.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#22

Post by waqf » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:59 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #10

"""It’s because on iOS all UI rendering occurs in a dedicated UI thread with real-time priority. On the other hand, Android follows the traditional PC model of rendering occurring on the main thread with normal priority.""" """On iOS when an app is installing from the app store and you put your finger on the screen, the installation instantly pauses until all rendering is finished.""" <- This is certainly not true. T…

I'm totally confused. When you say "the events that are later described as blocking rendering are coming in on the main thread, not some special "dedicated" one" are you talking about iOS or Android? I can't make sense of your post either way.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#23

Post by interlagos » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:59 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #17

interlagos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the delay on the GS II is the Vlingo voice functionality. Did you know (I ask because many people don't know) that if you tap the home button twice it brings up voice mode? The ability to recognize double clicks imposes a certain floor on the responsiveness of that button. That most certainly does bother me, and I've yet to discover how to disable it so it simply reacts immediately.

Why should it? The iPhone uses a home double-click to pull up the task manager/switcher interface. Yet single clicking the home button still instantly gives you the response you expect.

>Yet single clicking the home button still instantly gives you the response you expect.

The task manager/switcher is a child of the home screen. This overloaded functionality makes sense that you go to the home screen immediately and if you happen to click again it goes to the secondary mode.

Vlingo on the GS II has nothing to do with the home screen. It is its own world.

Should they have made the very first click instantly go to the home screen anyways (which could involve a lot of busy work given how rich an Android homescreen can be)? Good question. I don't think the two are directly comparable however.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#24

Post by illumin8 » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:59 PM UTC

interlagos wrote: post #11

sedev wrote: post #2

The takeaway for me is this: Android and iOS' creators made different tradeoffs in their UI programming. The iOS creators, overall, correctly predicted that a fast, smooth, responsive UI was something that users would care about enough that it was okay to pay a performance cost in other areas in order to make the UI as responsive as it is on iOS devices. Android's creators made a different tradeoff, and the UI on And…

How was the iOS decision more "correct"? Android is clearly succeeding despite the lack of UI refinement, so it's hard to hold one as victorious. There is definitely a different philosophy, though. The Android approach was that it was better to be correct -- if you scroll a page or a webpage, that what scrolls into the viewport needs to be correct, while iOS happily scrolled in a checkerboard. I prefer the stock Andr…

The iOS decision was more correct because it has proven itself in the marketplace. Consumers overwhelmingly demand touch interfaces on their smartphones and tablets, as opposed to stylus, trackball, or any other that has come before it.

Android started as a platform trying to out-Blackberry RIM. When the iPhone was released in 2007 they switched to a model of trying to out-do iOS.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#25

Post by interlagos » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #24

interlagos wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the iOS decision more "correct"? Android is clearly succeeding despite the lack of UI refinement, so it's hard to hold one as victorious. There is definitely a different philosophy, though. The Android approach was that it was better to be correct -- if you scroll a page or a webpage, that what scrolls into the viewport needs to be correct, while iOS happily scrolled in a checkerboard. I prefer the stock Andr…

The iOS decision was more correct because it has proven itself in the marketplace. Consumers overwhelmingly demand touch interfaces on their smartphones and tablets, as opposed to stylus, trackball, or any other that has come before it. Android started as a platform trying to out-Blackberry RIM. When the iPhone was released in 2007 they switched to a model of trying to out-do iOS.

That wasn't at all the focus of the comment that I replied to. I get that you're on this "keyboard/trackball" thing (sidenote -- did you know that Android devices still come out with keyboards and trackballs?), however the difference between the two platforms is largely simple architectural differences having nothing to do with form factor.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#26

Post by wooster » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:02 PM UTC

waqf wrote: post #22

saurik wrote: post #10

"""It’s because on iOS all UI rendering occurs in a dedicated UI thread with real-time priority. On the other hand, Android follows the traditional PC model of rendering occurring on the main thread with normal priority.""" """On iOS when an app is installing from the app store and you put your finger on the screen, the installation instantly pauses until all rendering is finished.""" <- This is certainly not true. T…

I'm totally confused. When you say "the events that are later described as blocking rendering are coming in on the main thread, not some special "dedicated" one" are you talking about iOS or Android? I can't make sense of your post either way.

saurik is talking about iOS.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#27

Post by ajross » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:03 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #14

interlagos wrote: post #8

This isn't a "follow-up", per se. Nonetheless, while Android continually works to smooth out the rough edges -- helped along by the march of technology -- this is something that is a bit overblown: Minor jutters of the interface is something that primarily irritates people as a relative thing, not as an absolute thing. If you are a developer or a reviewer and you regularly use an iOS device and an Android device, the…

Not quite. For instance, on a Galaxy S II, going to the home screen while in the mail app takes ~2 seconds. Doesn't matter how many times I do it, or even if I just do it in a loop, switching between mail and home. It's probably not even Android's direct fault - I wouldn't be surprised if this is Samsung's horrible software shining through - but it's very frustrating, and I don't use other devices to compare it to.

It's a digression (and an apples-to-oranges one at that) but your experience is definitely not typical. I have a Samsung Epic (Sprint's Galaxy S variant) running their new EI22 Gingerbread stack (very likely the same userspace base you have). And I don't see this at all. I don't use the built-in mail app, preferring K9. And I don't use the default home screen (Launcher Pro is just plain better). But the transition to the home screen is always instantaneously animated. Certainly nothing like 2 seconds.

So I'd put that up to a plain old bug (albeit a really frustrating one, and knowing the Android ecosystem one unlikely to be fixed), not a platform misfeature.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#28

Post by pace » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

Isn't Google's staff working under NDA?

I love the open discussion about Android's weakest point and I appreciate opinions from all side, in particular those from inside Google -- but this uncoordinated communication on G+ addressing problems w/o delivering a solution damages Android's image to some extent.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#29

Post by interlagos » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #21

interlagos wrote: post #8

This isn't a "follow-up", per se. Nonetheless, while Android continually works to smooth out the rough edges -- helped along by the march of technology -- this is something that is a bit overblown: Minor jutters of the interface is something that primarily irritates people as a relative thing, not as an absolute thing. If you are a developer or a reviewer and you regularly use an iOS device and an Android device, the…

Perhaps. But once the end user notices the lag compared to their friends device, it very quickly becomes an end users (and very shortly, the platforms) problem. My android lags, and it pisses me off. per your quote: "It's the same as getting an upgrade to your PC, a new video card, etc. You were perfectly happy before, but relative to your new reality the old one seems subpar, and you overestimate how much it interfe…

I don't disagree with what you've written, and the relative thing is a problem -- if people feel a bit shameful that their new device isn't as slick as the last generation iPhone, it does hurt love of one's device a bit. That's why Android 4.0 takes big steps in the "be proud to show it off" realm.

However to the relative thing, to most smartphone users the things that matter are can I use Facebook, how is the picture quality, can I share videos, etc. Others want a keyboard, big and bright screen, etc. To normal users -- the ones buying the overwhelming bulk of devices -- this just isn't the big issue that it is on tech boards. It just isn't.

Re: Follow up to “Android graphics true facts”, or The Reason Android is Laggy

#30

Post by ajross » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #24

interlagos wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the iOS decision more "correct"? Android is clearly succeeding despite the lack of UI refinement, so it's hard to hold one as victorious. There is definitely a different philosophy, though. The Android approach was that it was better to be correct -- if you scroll a page or a webpage, that what scrolls into the viewport needs to be correct, while iOS happily scrolled in a checkerboard. I prefer the stock Andr…

The iOS decision was more correct because it has proven itself in the marketplace. Consumers overwhelmingly demand touch interfaces on their smartphones and tablets, as opposed to stylus, trackball, or any other that has come before it. Android started as a platform trying to out-Blackberry RIM. When the iPhone was released in 2007 they switched to a model of trying to out-do iOS.

"Proven itself" how, exactly? Last I checked Android devices were outselling iOS. Now, there's room for argument here about what the proper design is for a mobile OS. But if you're going to support your platform flamage with statements like "Consumers overwhelmingly demand" you need to synchronize the argument with the facts.