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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#21

Post by philipwhiuk »

talideon wrote: post #18
ifqwz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems an appropriate word... "Insubordination is the act of willfully disobeying a lawful order of one's superior." Your boss is your superior, so disobeying what he asks of you is insubordination.

You seem to have missed the word "lawful".

lawful just means the order itself wasn't illegal. It doesn't mean that it's "enforcing the law"

If I tell you to go buy 10 apples, refusing would be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples.

If I tell you to go steal 10 apples, refusing would not be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples.

Until the court ruled against them, the view of the firm would have been it was legal to require someone to have their camera on. Hence they viewed it as insubordination to refuse.

They are wrong, it's not insubordination, but it's not unfair of them to think it was.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#22

Post by castis »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #5
jacknews wrote: post #2

"insubordination" wtf, was this a job or a prison camp?

Judging by their webpage they seem like a classic body shop making a living on selling cheaper EU devs to US firms.

Its hilarious that on the 3rd line they say "quality software is important to us..."; and immediately following is jquery soup.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#23

Post by esprehn »

6stringmerc wrote: post #16
yosamino wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. For example, in the regular case, i.e. 'no urgent reason' there is no such thing as an immediate dismissal, and this can be fought. Of course as always with the law ymmv - but there are many different ways in which your rights as a worker are protected. See this: https://www.usp.gv.at/mitarbeiter/beendigung-arbeitsve…

Very similar in Texas - it is called At Will employment. Other states are Right to Work. Each has pros and cons. I’ve only lived and worked in Texas so At Will is very close to “for any reason” as long as it’s not against the law. Don’t like your haircut? They can shut can you on the spot. On the flip side, if one day you go in and you’ve just had enough of the hourly retail job and think you can get a better one, yo…

"Right to work" is a different concept related to unions, and includes Texas:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

All the states are At Will, but a number of them have exceptions that provide certain protections (ex. Not being fired for following the law):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#24

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

yosamino wrote: post #11
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #3

>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of…

Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. For example, in the regular case, i.e. 'no urgent reason' there is no such thing as an immediate dismissal, and this can be fought. Of course as always with the law ymmv - but there are many different ways in which your rights as a worker are protected. See this: https://www.usp.gv.at/mitarbeiter/beendigung-arbeitsve…

>Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place.

Not true at all what you claim about Austria. There are zero protections in place for workers here unless you're over 50 or work at a place with a union (worker's council) that will fight for you. If you work for a small tech company you have no protections against unfair dismissal. Basically your boss can tell you at any time "in 30 days you won't work here anymore, goodbye" without any reason. Unlike other EU countries where you need to provide a specific legal reason why you're letting an employee go or you can get sued for unfair dismissal like the man in the article did to his former employer.

I spoke to Arbeite Kammer after being dismissed for no reason by a douchebag boss and they told me "your employer doesn't need a reason to dismiss you according to Austrian labor law".

My jaw dropped when I realized that Austria is basically, similar to US in this regard, where you get no protection against unfair dismissal except that here you get about 30-60 day notice period to find another job while you continue to work for your current employer. Austrian employers are even allowed to dismiss you while you're on sick leave. Crazy stuff.

Very backwards employment laws for an EU county.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#25

Post by philipwhiuk »

01acheru wrote: post #19
ifqwz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems an appropriate word... "Insubordination is the act of willfully disobeying a lawful order of one's superior." Your boss is your superior, so disobeying what he asks of you is insubordination.

> ... lawful order ... That's why it is not insubordination, the order must be lawful. Your boss is your superior but there are plenty of possible scenarios where disobeying their orders is not insubordination. Besides that, your boss is not in a position to give you orders . It is a work place not a prison or a platoon. In modern times insubordination is almost always related to military contexts.

Nah, insubordination is a very common term in employment law.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#26

Post by philipwhiuk »

castis wrote: post #17
ifqwz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems an appropriate word... "Insubordination is the act of willfully disobeying a lawful order of one's superior." Your boss is your superior, so disobeying what he asks of you is insubordination.

Since the lawsuit was successful, the order given was proven to not be lawful. Thus, not insubordination.

Sure, but that wasn't the expectation of the company at the time they called it that.

If the court ruled in their favour it would have been insubordination.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#27

Post by volepole »

ifqwz wrote: post #14
jacknews wrote: post #2

"insubordination" wtf, was this a job or a prison camp?

Seems an appropriate word... "Insubordination is the act of willfully disobeying a lawful order of one's superior." Your boss is your superior, so disobeying what he asks of you is insubordination.

Your boss is just some other person. If he thinks he's superior to anyone else, he can fuck right off. He'll end up as worm food just like the rest of us.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#29

Post by nraynaud »

gnfargbl wrote: post #4

> Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show. So, it's a fair assumption that no organisation in the Netherlands is going to pay out as a result of this. What are the chances of the employee being able to enforce this judgment in a Florida court?

There is a mechanism to get civil lawsuits results registered accross borders for collection, I don't know how difficult it is to use.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#30

Post by nraynaud »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #3

>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of…

Plus you can always fire anyone for any reason in the EU, just give them enough money to stomach it.
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