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Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

reuters.com

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Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#21

Post by Longhanks »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20
dagw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ECJ can only rule on EU laws. So as such they are not overturning any German laws, just stating the the German law is not in compliance with EU regulations. What that means in practice varies a lot from case to case, but in general the EU has the power to fine members that are in breach of EU regulations. For practical reasons most EU countries want to be in compliance with EU law and will often follow ECJ recommenda…

> many EU countries have laws that essentially state that all their laws must comply with EU law Isn’t granting the ECJ jurisdiction is a requirement of EU membership?

EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#22

Post by Longhanks »

chippiewill wrote: post #15
rmbyrro wrote: post #5

Is the ECJ kind of a Supreme Court that can overturn member state laws and rulings? I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU...

Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#23

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Longhanks wrote: post #21
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many EU countries have laws that essentially state that all their laws must comply with EU law Isn’t granting the ECJ jurisdiction is a requirement of EU membership?

EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.

> EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all

Germany [1] and Hungary [2] played with this fire. In summary, no.

Treaties have force of law. If a country improperly ratified their EU treaties, they need to amend their constitution (if it exists) or admit they never properly joined the EU in the first place. Given the latter means economic collapse for most EU members, it’s not a hard choice.

[1] https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2020/06/nick-kenny-german-...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/world/first-eu-seen-moving-cut-money...

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#24

Post by Longhanks »

tokai wrote: post #10
rmbyrro wrote: post #5

Is the ECJ kind of a Supreme Court that can overturn member state laws and rulings? I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU...

The sovereign members of the EU have ratified treaties of European Union law themself.

* some of the then-elected governments

There was a national referendum before the Lisbon treaties that was declined by the Netherlands and France, which in turn "watered down" the EU constitution into the Lisbon treaties which are now in use, which were then ratified without any national votes.

As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#25

Post by Longhanks »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23
Longhanks wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.

> EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all Germany [1] and Hungary [2] played with this fire. In summary, no. Treaties have force of law. If a country improperly ratified their EU treaties, they need to amend their constitution (if it exists) or admit they never properly joined the EU in the first place. Given the latter means economic collapse for most EU membe…

Once the people choose to no longer follow the EU Supreme Court, thus, as a follow up, no longer choose to follow the EU treaties, they exit the EU just as the UK did.

No country is or can be forced to be a EU member.

Just because there are economic implications does not mean the EU treaties are above the countries‘ constitutions the people actually chose to enact.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#26

Post by salawat »

Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

It comes from fundamental constraints on signal propagation, socially reinforced bias towards abstaining or following anyone who sounds like they have expertise, confict aversion, the huge overhead involved with actually becoming known enough by people to get past change aversion, and a general willingness to accept that the emperor is far away even though in today's world they aren't.

We're literally living in a time where "global" namespace changes are made willy nilly by people who don't even spend the time reading everything they may have an effect on by doing them, which is just accepted as being "impossible".

Further, the only people with the time/resources to engage in politics in a tangible way are pgobably the most disconnected people from the way of life for the polises they are shaping.

Human beings are ruthless energy optimizers (biological constraint), and the cognitive load of actually productive political engagement is absurdly high. Thus, people with literally anything else to do avoid it, or find it pointless, leaving only those so bereft of anything else to do to be the most impactful on that arena. Which in turn creates more for the disengaged to have to do to keep them from getting in the way...

It's a vicious cycle.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#27

Post by einpoklum »

Longhanks wrote: post #21
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many EU countries have laws that essentially state that all their laws must comply with EU law Isn’t granting the ECJ jurisdiction is a requirement of EU membership?

EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.

And here I was thinking that German (and to some extent French) politico-economic interests stand above all. Silly me...

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#28

Post by Xylakant »

Longhanks wrote: post #21
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many EU countries have laws that essentially state that all their laws must comply with EU law Isn’t granting the ECJ jurisdiction is a requirement of EU membership?

EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.

But if your constitution is incompatible with the treaties required to be member in the EU, you essentially have two options: change your constitution or not be member of the EU.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#29

Post by ectopod »

sofixa wrote: post #7
rmbyrro wrote: post #5

Is the ECJ kind of a Supreme Court that can overturn member state laws and rulings? I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU...

> I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU... ~80-90% depending on how you measure. The judiciary of all countries is technically under the ECJ jurisdiction. People can sue their countries, and local court decisions can be appealed to the European court structure (ECJ/ECHR). That was in fact one of the Brexit talking points, judiciary independence.

Just to be clear, the ECHR is not an EU court and brexit Britain is still under its jurisdiction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#30

Post by anony999 »

Longhanks wrote: post #22
chippiewill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

Technically the answer is yes. In practice I believe there would be civil war before that happens.
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