Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one • Hacker News Board

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#21

Post by prmoustache » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

dbingham wrote: post #5

This is what happens when you optimize for only a single variable. And the end result won't be what you want it to be. It doesn't do us any good to stop climate change if the ecosystem still collapses out from under us. Creating a sustainable environment is a systems problem and carbon is just one of many variables in that system. Yes, it's a really important one and in many ways it is the most pressing. But biodiver…

By the way, this is exactly what a climate change denier would write, except that that would talk about collapsing the economy if we focused too much on reducing carbon emissions. The truth is reducing CO2 emissions is an emergency, and any other environmental considerations other than doing that is just arguing about deck chairs on the Titanic. At this point, we would have been in a much better position if the Green…

The emergency was 50 years ago.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#22

Post by CatWChainsaw » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

Lacerda69 wrote: post #6

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

Why would stop buying honey from beekeepers?

Also skeptical of the honey thing. Honeybees produce honey which is a valuable product on its own, but honeybees are also distinguished from other bee species by their massive colonies (colonies are the groups of bees, hives are where they live). This is why there is an industry that trucks honeybee colonies/hives around the country to pollinate whichever crops are in season. This is to the detriment of whichever pollinator species live locally. The honeybees pollinate, but they take a disruptive amount of pollen to feed their own colonies at the expense of the native pollinators, and in return they share their diseases like varroa mites.

If a crop needs pollination but you want to reduce dependence on honeybees, it's likely you would need to break up the land the crop is on in order to plant flowering species that attract native pollinators at the edges, and that comes with its own downsides for maintenance and harvest.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#23

Post by chrisamiller » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

dane-pgp wrote: post #13

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

Let's say you could convince an extra 10% of the world to follow those rules, and that it doesn't cause a rebound effect (as per the Jevons paradox). How much extra time would that buy us before an unstoppable climate catastrophe?

There is already an unstoppable climate catastrophe happening. Many of the effects are already baked in for the next 50-100 years and it will disproportionately affect the poor.

What we can still control is how bad it is. (An increase 1.5 degrees C looks a hell of a lot different than 4 degrees C). That's still very much a fight worth fighting.

When people ask if we should do this or that, the answer should be "yes". These rules are fine - we should eat less meat, we should drive and fly less, etc. We should also do more systemic things, like investing heavily in battery tech and solar and wind and even fusion longshots. We should regulate the hell out of emissions, and use the proceeds from taxes and fines to help mitigate the effects on the poor. Getting to net zero carbon is going to be hard but it has to happen.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#24

Post by CatWChainsaw » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #11

Two that I hear constantly: rooftop solar and urban gardening (or "farming" if you must). Both are ecological catastrophes when they prevent the effective use of cities to house people in energy-efficient buildings with low demand for transportation. Protecting rooftop solar with "solar access rights" is something that some find superficially green but is actually ruinous.

What is the problem with urban gardening? On a rooftop, greenery would help with the heat, and I find it difficult to believe that greenery in a space which otherwise has none would be an "ecological catastrophe".

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#25

Post by xenocratus » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

Link(s) to a source that analyses the health impact of those first 5 things on your list?

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#26

Post by dbingham » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #16

dbingham wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in the US, your order is wrong. 1. Walk or bike. 1a. If you can't do the above, use public transport. 1b. If you can't do that, consider moving to a city where you can do all of the above (if you can afford it). If you're rural, seek a land trust or farmer to buy your land when you do. 2. Insulate your house. 3. Get solar if you can afford it. 3a. Replace all gas appliances with electric (Heat pump, elect…

Dramatically reducing meat consumption is the single best thing the average westerner could do to limit their environmental impact. Why did you remove it?

a) Because that's not true. The numbers don't actually work out that way. Transportation and heating are most American's biggest carbon contribution. Agriculture is down a ways. b) Because there is evidence that meat production done right IE intensive rotation grazing or silvopasture where the meat is grazed on a small section of land at a time and most of the land is left fallow most of the time can actually drastically increase ecosystem services. It allows the land to function as native prairie or savanna.

There is also evidence that this sort of grazing can substantially reduce carbon emissions. Meanwhile monocultured grain, beans, and veggies - especially conventional with heavy pesticide* (edit: originally wrote fertilizer, meant pesticide) use - are devastating to ecosystems. They're essentially turning large swaths of land into killing fields, taking the bottom right out of ecosystem and contributing to the massive drop in insect populations (which form the foundation of the food web) we've seen across the developed world.

In short - the agricultural analysis is really fucking complex, multivariate, and grey.

She links a literature analysis that claims to contradict much of this, but I've read literature analyses making these sorts of claims before that just ignore most of the alternative systems, gloss over a lot of nuance, or downplay the harm of convention systems in major ways. I need to read the one she linked, but experience has taught me to treat it skeptically.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#27

Post by hotz » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

The climate's been changing since the world came into being. Stop trying to play God and think you can control nature. Fear mongering. Look how miserable western countries are with their eco warrior solutions.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#28

Post by jeffbee » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

CatWChainsaw wrote: post #24

jeffbee wrote: post #11

Two that I hear constantly: rooftop solar and urban gardening (or "farming" if you must). Both are ecological catastrophes when they prevent the effective use of cities to house people in energy-efficient buildings with low demand for transportation. Protecting rooftop solar with "solar access rights" is something that some find superficially green but is actually ruinous.

What is the problem with urban gardening? On a rooftop, greenery would help with the heat, and I find it difficult to believe that greenery in a space which otherwise has none would be an "ecological catastrophe".

There isn't anything wrong with urban gardening itself. The problem comes when anti-development groups impose policies to prevent any building from casting a shadow on anything. Greenery and open space are both good and important, and gardening is a fine hobby. But urban gardens don't feed anyone and if there is a choice between housing people in an existing city, or protecting an existing garden from shadows, we should choose the housing every time.

Same thing goes for rooftop solar power: it's fine, but protecting it is not important.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#29

Post by jrajav » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

_petronius wrote: post #2

Although "environmentally friendly" is not strictly equal to "minimum possible GHG footprint". The plastic bag may have a lower carbon footprint, but it isn't going to biodegrade as quickly, and may end up turning into microplastics that persist for a long time.

I also wondered this - initially I saw that the chart linked had a "Lifecycle Analysis" and so I nodded and went on my way thinking that disposal had been accounted for.

I'm glad you brought it up, because upon looking at the study the chart is based on, it seems hopelessly optimistic - it accounts for several end-of-life scenarios but they are all 'good' disposals performed after plastic collection, like recycling or incineration. Zero accounting for accidental or incompetent sending to landfills, which indeed seems the main issue with plastic bags.

(The study is also specific to Denmark, where perhaps disposal programs are more reliable than they are in the US.)

https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#30

Post by Blahah » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #5

This is what happens when you optimize for only a single variable. And the end result won't be what you want it to be. It doesn't do us any good to stop climate change if the ecosystem still collapses out from under us. Creating a sustainable environment is a systems problem and carbon is just one of many variables in that system. Yes, it's a really important one and in many ways it is the most pressing. But biodiver…

The project looks cool! I've built quite a few open academic publishing platforms, we would have a lot to talk about I imagine :)

You might be interested in what we're doing at LabDAO, including our publishing lab and the community governance we're developing. Note: we're a DAO but it's not about crypto.

Contact in my profile if you'd like to chat.