How sustainable are fake meats? • Hacker News Board

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#21

Post by wyre » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:00 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #2

It is unlikely they will get radically worse, but its possible they won't get radically better. However, on-the-hoof meat production has some ideas which can be remarkably transformative: the seaweed additive would reduce methane burp burden immensely. Nothing much alters the water burden of different organisms. Beef is high. Almonds are amongst the highest in plant foods. Sustainable fake meat will want to be signif…

>seaweed additive

This has been an idea for years and afaik there is only one farm in Australia feeding their cattle seaweed. Keep in mind it is a specific kelp and to supplement the diets of the world cattle population with seaweed it would need to be farmed with exponential growth to the point of being a major or close to major crop.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#22

Post by markeibes » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:01 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #15

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements. I've had a few but I wouldn't make it a habit to replace meat with it. But I would surely replace one of my meals with 100% vegetables if it was easy to get and tasty. One that comes to mind is a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats. The idea that fake meat is so much…

Why did you kill the planet, daddy? It was just too tasty!

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#23

Post by markeibes » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:04 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #3

It takes 8 gallons of water to produce cow milk 1 gallon. It takes 48 gallons of water to make almond milk 1 gallon. The same with the plant burgers take more water to make than meat. When water gets scarce there will be shortages.

No

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#24

Post by diffeomorphism » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:27 AM UTC

markeibes wrote: post #22

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements. I've had a few but I wouldn't make it a habit to replace meat with it. But I would surely replace one of my meals with 100% vegetables if it was easy to get and tasty. One that comes to mind is a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats. The idea that fake meat is so much…

Why did you kill the planet, daddy? It was just too tasty!

That reply makes no sense to me. The post you are replying to suggested replacing meat with veggies (instead of fake meat). Why do you think eating veggies will "kill the planet"?

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#25

Post by Schroedingersat » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:27 AM UTC

_xerces_ wrote: post #11

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #4

What I don't get about fake meats is that they even exist. There is absolutely no reason why humans need to eat meat. 20+% of India's population is vegetarian and has been for generations. They have full lives without meat. People don't have to be 100% vegetarians. The real game changer is to get the world's population to reduce their meat intake by eating more vegetarian meals. Vegetarian meals can be very tasty and…

When you get time to read the article, you'll see that this point was addressed and that it turns out people won't change their behavior despite knowing for decades that meat can be cruel and terrible for the planet. You need to give people and easy low-friction alternative, and eating beans and rice in place of a juicy burger isn't going to cut it.

People do change their behavior slowly.

That is why filming on factory farms and slaughterhouses is a jailable offense in Australia and why the meat industry spends billions on handouts worldwide.

Very simple changes like reducing meat in media, mandating a listed vegetarian option at restaraunts, forced transparency on the harms involved, and lowering the massive subsidies would reduce meat consumption considerably.

Or you could do the same thing that was done to almost completely stop the influx of new smokers. Lock the meat behind a cabinet out of sight and include a picture of the animal at the place and time of its death on the packaging.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#26

Post by peyton » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:30 AM UTC

Schroedingersat wrote: post #25

_xerces_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you get time to read the article, you'll see that this point was addressed and that it turns out people won't change their behavior despite knowing for decades that meat can be cruel and terrible for the planet. You need to give people and easy low-friction alternative, and eating beans and rice in place of a juicy burger isn't going to cut it.

People do change their behavior slowly. That is why filming on factory farms and slaughterhouses is a jailable offense in Australia and why the meat industry spends billions on handouts worldwide. Very simple changes like reducing meat in media, mandating a listed vegetarian option at restaraunts, forced transparency on the harms involved, and lowering the massive subsidies would reduce meat consumption considerably.…

Post-pandemic I think people are pretty tired of behavior change campaigns like these. What would you do about backlash or counter-movements?

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#27

Post by tuatoru » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:40 AM UTC

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

There are a few little details elided.

Pastoral lands are pastoral, and not arable, usually because they are not suitable for arable cropping. There is either too little rainfall, or the wrong kind/timing of rainfall, or the soils are wrong. For rainfall reasons forests are out too.

Articles that go on about how ${large_number} percent of the world's non-desert, non-mountain, non-arctic land is used for grazing animals, all omit these inconvenient facts.

The "Sand Hills" region in Nebraska is typical. Dry, could in theory support arable farming, for a while, by drawing down the Ogallala aquifer. But for the fact that that the soil is just sand, and it doesn't give good crop yields. Pouring on the amounts of fertilizer that would be required for cropping would poison the aquifer for everyone else. (In the Sand Hills, the aquifer is highly connected to the surface because of the porosity of the, er, sand.)

Leaving these pastoral lands fallow (without herds of wild ruminants, with their global warming emissions) would just result in continual grass fires.

That said, feeding ruminant animals grains (soy, maize/corn, wheat) is a Bad Idea environmentally as far as I can tell. So is bulldozing the Amazon rainforest to grow soy and cattle. And it might be a Good Idea to re-wild quite a bit of pastoral land. I don't know. Persuading people to leave money on the table is difficult.[1]

1. Major Major's father notwithstanding. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/771699-his-specialty-was-al...

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#28

Post by jstummbillig » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #15

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements. I've had a few but I wouldn't make it a habit to replace meat with it. But I would surely replace one of my meals with 100% vegetables if it was easy to get and tasty. One that comes to mind is a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats. The idea that fake meat is so much…

It's quite simple: If someone replaces some type of food in their diet with something else, it's by definition a replacement.

People ate meat. Now instead of meat, and increasingly, they eat something else instead, which turns out to be better for the environment.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#29

Post by oweiler » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:04 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #15

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements. I've had a few but I wouldn't make it a habit to replace meat with it. But I would surely replace one of my meals with 100% vegetables if it was easy to get and tasty. One that comes to mind is a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats. The idea that fake meat is so much…

Look for Indian cuisine, which in parts is both vegan and delicious/healthy. Much better than that overprocessed crap.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#30

Post by ranguna » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:36 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #4

What I don't get about fake meats is that they even exist. There is absolutely no reason why humans need to eat meat. 20+% of India's population is vegetarian and has been for generations. They have full lives without meat. People don't have to be 100% vegetarians. The real game changer is to get the world's population to reduce their meat intake by eating more vegetarian meals. Vegetarian meals can be very tasty and…

Despite not eating meat for a few years now, I like the flavour of meat. So I personally welcome fake meats any time of the week, as long as they aren't prohibitly expensive to the environment.