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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#21

Sounds like the Portuguese government should start building flats as fast as possible. Other countries in the EU do it and it works.

What EU countries? The only ones I am familiar with have housing prices spiraling out of control just like in Portugal.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#22

There’s much truth here, but it isn’t the entire picture. Lisboa and Oporto are hideously overpriced, and it is indeed hard to see how a normal Portuguese earner can afford to live in either. Even Vila Nova de Gaia, which was the “cheap” side of Oporto, is now parlously expensive. This effect has bled along the coast, and many coastal villages now ask €200k for an unmodernised one bedroom house. But… the interior of…

> But… the interior of the country is still facing depopulation, and property prices and rents here are still low.

Some people just don't think very highly of "flyover country". The culture is not what they're used to. Return to the land makes a whole lot of sense though, now that the basic infrastructure for hybrid remote working is pretty much ubiquitous (courtesy of COVID).

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#23

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

It's not really unsustainable - Switzerland and other wealthy microstates show us the long-term outcome, which is quite desirable. In fact, the "ordinary people" will eventually benefit the most, since their wages will grow to match the prevalent cost of living. Transition can of course be difficult.

Switzerland does not qualify as a microstate at all. You're looking at a population that would fill Los Angeles, twice over... The one thing that is sure is public transportation is night and day, and this helps a lot fight the mad-commute effect for non-millionaires.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#24

There’s much truth here, but it isn’t the entire picture. Lisboa and Oporto are hideously overpriced, and it is indeed hard to see how a normal Portuguese earner can afford to live in either. Even Vila Nova de Gaia, which was the “cheap” side of Oporto, is now parlously expensive. This effect has bled along the coast, and many coastal villages now ask €200k for an unmodernised one bedroom house. But… the interior of…

That's one of the things that always bothered me about cost of living arguments it always seems to be it's to expensive to live anywhere (inside of these several highly desirable locations that I want to live exclusively and are very expensive.) There are plenty of places to live and plenty of housing, just not where people want to be.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#25

There’s much truth here, but it isn’t the entire picture. Lisboa and Oporto are hideously overpriced, and it is indeed hard to see how a normal Portuguese earner can afford to live in either. Even Vila Nova de Gaia, which was the “cheap” side of Oporto, is now parlously expensive. This effect has bled along the coast, and many coastal villages now ask €200k for an unmodernised one bedroom house. But… the interior of…

Maybe it's just a matter of time? In Canada even the small cities got unaffordable , mainly after COVID started. With the interest rate raise a lot of people are hoping for a crash, some banks are saying it will be up to this 20-40% in some cities. Hopefully that helps. There's no where livable in Canada that is affordable to have a house right now.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#26
I wonder how much Airbnb is to blame on the raising rents around the world. Why charge a "local" rate when you can charge 5x that rate for a tourist paying in $$$? Even if you don't, just knowing about Airbnb's extremely high prices will most likely put inflationary pressure on rents.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#27
post #14

This same story seems to be playing out anywhere that attracts it and allows it.

Unless you have really crappy weather, like here in Sweden :-p

What do you mean. Sweden has hugely inflated housing prices.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really unsustainable - Switzerland and other wealthy microstates show us the long-term outcome, which is quite desirable. In fact, the "ordinary people" will eventually benefit the most, since their wages will grow to match the prevalent cost of living. Transition can of course be difficult.

How big is Switzerland population?

The same as Portugal's, very roughly. (Or the same as the greater Bay Area if you wish.) So the point is applicable.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#29
Some Canadian cities responded to this with a foreign buyers tax, notably in Vancouver. Florida has a method for balancing its "snowbird" population to do with foreign buyers. Personally, I think this is the effect of governments themselves no longer believing in nations and borders or a responsibility for them, and simply importing polarized populations of both very rich and very poor people whose effect in concert squeezes out the middle who made the country desirable. The cynicism comes from the 90's where multinationals globalized and just became financial rails for stateless revenue flows, and now governments saw the opportunities and are globalizing their constituencies, where if they want to stay in power, all they need is money and votes that come from importing wealthy people in exchange for buying Gold visas and "donations," and poor people to depend on their extractive policies. What we're watching is the intentional dissolution of the nation state and replacement of relatively equal populations with polarized ones. It's barely right/left at all, it's just nihilistic power as its own end.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#30

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

Apparently the wealthy with vacation homes on Cape Cod didn't get your memo. Our local businesses don't have enough workers due to unattainable housing. Enjoy your long lines, reduced hours and hollow communities! At least there will be lots of pickleball courts!
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