Live data from Hacker News

Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

royvanrijn.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#21
post #3

A more interesting story is behind the blog post linked in the article to someone else's implementation (which I also think contains a bit more detail than this one): [0] https://www.royvanrijn.com/blog/2010/06/creating-shazam-in-j... [1] https://www.royvanrijn.com/blog/2010/06/music-matching-part-... Turns out he was contacted and threatened by some patent lawyers from Shazam for writing the above blog posts: [2] ht…

The patent infringement part 2 update was in 2010. Wonder if they ever got back to him.

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#22
post #3

A more interesting story is behind the blog post linked in the article to someone else's implementation (which I also think contains a bit more detail than this one): [0] https://www.royvanrijn.com/blog/2010/06/creating-shazam-in-j... [1] https://www.royvanrijn.com/blog/2010/06/music-matching-part-... Turns out he was contacted and threatened by some patent lawyers from Shazam for writing the above blog posts: [2] ht…

The patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6990453

I wonder if they have such pattern in EU or Netherlands. US tends to patent stuff that wouldn't fly in Europe.

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#23
post #18

> The Shazam patent holders lawyers are sending me emails to stop me from releasing the code and removing this blogpost The fact that the justification for the patent system is to ensure knowledge about inventions is disseminated and yet it generates the above situation where they are literally threatening to sue him for disseminating the knowledge of how it works, tells you a lot about how badly the patent system is…

The justification of the patent system is to protect the original creator / innovator from being copied so they can better commercialise their invention (legal protection which can be practically enforced better than a trade secret, which can be replicated).

Since when is the idea of a patent to disseminate knowledge of how something works?

This seems to be patents working as-intended (ie Shazam wouldn’t want an open source competitor)

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#24
post #23
post #18

> The Shazam patent holders lawyers are sending me emails to stop me from releasing the code and removing this blogpost The fact that the justification for the patent system is to ensure knowledge about inventions is disseminated and yet it generates the above situation where they are literally threatening to sue him for disseminating the knowledge of how it works, tells you a lot about how badly the patent system is…

The justification of the patent system is to protect the original creator / innovator from being copied so they can better commercialise their invention (legal protection which can be practically enforced better than a trade secret, which can be replicated). Since when is the idea of a patent to disseminate knowledge of how something works? This seems to be patents working as-intended (ie Shazam wouldn’t want an open…

The purpose of a patent is to encourage global innovation by granting exclusive rights for commercialising technology for a limited time in response to sharing how it works.

Roughly, if you invent PageRank and keep it internal to your search company, you can exploit that idea but if someone else comes up with it they can exploit it too. If you invent PageRank and patent it, the whole world knows how it works but can’t use it for 20 years without paying you.

Generally in case of a violation you’d want to sue for damages, whether that be licensing costs not paid, or missed revenue on your own side.

This probably then ends up in a bit of a grey area. Shazam would be within their rights to exert the patent, but the damages are likely so minimal to be outweighed by the cost of litigating the case, which means that the C&D is a little too chilling for my liking. Basically, any penalty would be lawyers fees - author hasn’t tried to commercialise it, it doesn’t reduce Shazam’s revenue at all. Are there any damages at all?

And then, few would argue (I think) that simply implementing a patent for educational purposes constitutes infringement. My uni course contained an implementation of PageRank. Is publishing the course notes then infringement? Arguable it’s anti-goal to discourage actually spending time learning about the innovation beyond just reading the patent doc - otherwise the motivations of the system break down. So, just how different is this? Presumably on a conceptual basis you want your universities to be able to teach about things invented in the last 20 years without licensing patents?

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#25
post #23
post #18

> The Shazam patent holders lawyers are sending me emails to stop me from releasing the code and removing this blogpost The fact that the justification for the patent system is to ensure knowledge about inventions is disseminated and yet it generates the above situation where they are literally threatening to sue him for disseminating the knowledge of how it works, tells you a lot about how badly the patent system is…

The justification of the patent system is to protect the original creator / innovator from being copied so they can better commercialise their invention (legal protection which can be practically enforced better than a trade secret, which can be replicated). Since when is the idea of a patent to disseminate knowledge of how something works? This seems to be patents working as-intended (ie Shazam wouldn’t want an open…

Why do people comment on things like patents when they don't know anything about them?

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6990453

I wonder if they have such pattern in EU or Netherlands. US tends to patent stuff that wouldn't fly in Europe.

It's more complicated[1] that but essentially there are no software patents in EU or Europe. Sadly the EU Commission have been trying to get them into legislation for over a decade[2]. It's fits perfectly with their highly protectionist authoritarian centralised control and regulation agenda.

Having worked in companies it's immaterial anyway as big companies with a USA based vehicle will still be patent trolled if they do business there. Seen it happen

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_E...

[2] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#28
post #11
post #6

I thought they use Cepstrum followed by machine learning.

windows fingerprinted by distances and angles between spectral peaks. robust to noise but not warping in time or frequency domains. fingerprints stored in a scalable lsh style lookup table. (iirc) with the goal of a fast, scalable lookup table for all the 30s windows in all recorded music.

> robust to noise but not warping in time or frequency domains.

Could you use something like a dynamic time warping algorithm for this? (I'm not super acquainted with the technique and not sure if you could get away with it in the frequency domain used for the matching.)

Re: Creating Shazam in Java (2010)

#30
post #18

> The Shazam patent holders lawyers are sending me emails to stop me from releasing the code and removing this blogpost The fact that the justification for the patent system is to ensure knowledge about inventions is disseminated and yet it generates the above situation where they are literally threatening to sue him for disseminating the knowledge of how it works, tells you a lot about how badly the patent system is…

IMO software patents should be entirely abolished. If you look at patents from before computers entered the picture, a patent covered the idea + implementation.

Someone could create a better bucket design and patent that design, what one could not do is patent the idea of "a container that holds liquid".

But that seems to be exactly what has happened with software patents. With software, the idea is very much divorced with the implementation (I think Paul Graham or someone else said a while back that an idea by itself is worthless, it's all about the execution of the idea). It seems that with software patents is less "this is my invention, I want to protect it" and more "hey I had this cool idea, now no one can have the same idea again".

Post reply on HN