Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too” • Hacker News Board

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#21

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 8:58 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

I don't really find this a compelling critique, but beyond that - the suggestion that what is experienced in the average modern-day sweatshop making your shoe is akin to the historical chattel slavery of the middle passage is absurd and hyperbolic.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#22

Post by bragr » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 8:58 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

>not vocally criticizing is nothing like actively participating.

That's not what we decided about the collective guilt of nazi germany.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#23

Post by zmgsabst » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #19

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

Just to paraphrase a bit, are you suggesting that any athlete with any merchandise is hypocritical for stating any socially progressive opinion? That seems like a very rigid standard IMO.

No, what I said was very narrow — if you outspokenly condemn historic slavery in the US while profiting from companies that use slave labor, you’re the definition of a hypocrite.

There are “progressive” opinions unrelated which wouldn’t be hypocritical, eg, advocating for universal healthcare while profiting from slaves.

Edit: example related to healthcare here, since I hit the posting cap —

I think the closer example would be advocating for universal healthcare while receiving money from people who actively lobby against it to promote their product, eg, insurance companies.

But part of why they’re “hypocrites” rather than “sellouts” is their lack of speaking out against Chinese slavery, the way Enes Freedom has done.

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/590392-ene...

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#24

Post by egypturnash » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

If someone is openly taking your money for the stuff they make and giving it to people who are pretty open about wanting to make your life worse, then they shouldn't be surprised if you quit buying their stuff. Actions have consequences, and being filthy rich shields you from some of them, but not all of them.

And sometimes choosing to not take a side is, in fact, an action with distinct consequences.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#25

Post by zmgsabst » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

bragr wrote: post #22

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

>not vocally criticizing is nothing like actively participating. That's not what we decided about the collective guilt of nazi germany.

You’re wrong:

We prosecuted those who actively participated at Nuremberg and still hunt Nazi soldier to this day… while we didn’t, in general, prosecute the German people.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#26

Post by xwdv » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

Unless you are a politician, there is no reason for anyone to know your own personal political views. Any announcement of such views is signaling. It serves no other purpose.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#27

Post by encryptluks2 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

Here I thought the progressive ideology would be to not buy Nike's because they are overpriced garbage that has a history of questionable manufacturing processes. Professional sports in many ways are like the cornerstone of capitalism.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#28

Post by Morizero » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

And yet, Nike's sales surged when they brought on Kaepernick

> Despite Fox News and parts of the social mediasphere predicting the Swoosh’s downfall, the company claimed $163 million in earned media, a $6 billion brand value increase, and a 31% boost in sales.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90399316/one-year-later-what-did...

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#29

Post by madrox » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

I'm more interested in the question of by what right do we demand others to endorse candidates and be publicly political? Jordan provided that response out of pressure for an explanation for why he didn't endorse anyone. It's wild to me that somehow democrats felt they were owed his support. They certainly don't enjoy it when someone comes out in support of the opponent.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#30

Post by zmgsabst » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #21

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

I don't really find this a compelling critique, but beyond that - the suggestion that what is experienced in the average modern-day sweatshop making your shoe is akin to the historical chattel slavery of the middle passage is absurd and hyperbolic.

I was referring to forced labor from Uyghurs.