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BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

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Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#21

Post by etrautmann »

axit wrote: post #17
danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

Usually works but sometimes there's no one at the kiosk. > I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trains and stations as shelters by the unhoused. Time limits around entry exit could be useful here, where you can exit within 10 minutes of entry there is no charge. Reason for exiting at the same station for me is the train is delayed by 30 minutes and I forgot to check the next t…

exactly - it seems braindead obvious to me that there should be a 5-minute window for exiting without charge. Not implementing such an obvious and trivial feature can only be interpreted as deliberately taking money without delivering value for riders because....it's possible?

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#22

Post by kderbyma »

As someone who is not familiar with this transit system, but familiar with my own....this is criminal ... I would have a fit to be charged for not using the service.....

we have a different system. timed tickets....or monthly passes or day passes....wtf is this robbery.

no offense...but this is the opposite of free market principles at work...this is straight extortion

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#23

Post by tialaramex »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #8
danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)

One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the computer would look at these journeys and go, er - no, the sane routes use Zone 1 so a ticket needs Zone 1 validity...

On day one there was no noticeable symptom. But if your Oyster only had a season ticket for outer Zones and your route was via Zone 1 the system had surcharged you, and when you tried to travel the next day the Oyster has negative balance, you can't use it until you pay off the excess. This infuriated some travellers, when in reality they had actually been cheating (presumably in most cases without realising) previously.

Today Oyster can actually track if you insist on taking the long route, you tap pink validators at key interchanges you'd need to pass through to do your slower and less central route avoiding Zone 1, and the system will go OK, fair enough, you really did go the long way so keep your money. I expect very few people do this.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#24

Post by geebee »

Isn't there a hack/scam where you could (in the absence of a same-station charge) pay less or nothing to ride bart?

I remember people talking bout this ages ago (like, 20 years ago). You keep two bart cards going, and use the same one to enter and leave the same station. If there's a same-station charge, you can use it to enter/leave a nearby station, avoiding the higher fee for longer trips.

Is there a possibility that the same-fare charge is kept around to prevent this hack?

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#25

Post by ribosometronome »

kderbyma wrote: post #22

As someone who is not familiar with this transit system, but familiar with my own....this is criminal ... I would have a fit to be charged for not using the service..... we have a different system. timed tickets....or monthly passes or day passes....wtf is this robbery. no offense...but this is the opposite of free market principles at work...this is straight extortion

Free market, extortion, and robbery are not exclusive from each other :)

But you're right. Transit like this is rarely the free market at work in the US, though, you're right It's operated by a governmental entity. It's hard to have competing subway systems.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#26

Post by rahimnathwani »

tialaramex wrote: post #23
rahimnathwani wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)

One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the c…

> presumably in most cases without realising

I doubt this. Even as a child I knew that a travelcard must be valid for all the zones you travel through. Of course, if challenged, someone knowingly cheating would claim they didn't realise.

> you tap pink validators at key interchanges > you'd need to pass through to do your slower > and less central route avoiding Zone 1"

Wow! I had no idea this was a thing. I moved away from London in 2010, and now I'm curious to know whether this was implemented before or after I left.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#27

Post by hparadiz »

These are the kind of little things that make me not want to use public transportation if I can help it.

This was common for me in Philly. I'd pay to get onto the station platform then spend 30 minutes waiting for a train that is supposed to come every 10. Then upon realizing it would never come I'd end up with the double penalty of not getting a refund from SEPTA as well as having to pay for an Uber. Only to the get chewed out by my boss at comcast for walking in at 9:45.

Meanwhile all the people coming from the suburbs with an hour long delay would get a pass just because they don't live in the city.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#28

Post by rahimnathwani »

CoffeeOnWrite wrote: post #12
rahimnathwani wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)

You’re correct. When you try to enter next the turnstile will error out with “see agent”. That’s when they fix your card and peel the sticker off. Which highlights the total ridiculousness: they’re asking riders to see an agent twice!

> they’re asking riders to see an agent twice

Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#29

Post by jonas21 »

etrautmann wrote: post #21
axit wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually works but sometimes there's no one at the kiosk. > I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trains and stations as shelters by the unhoused. Time limits around entry exit could be useful here, where you can exit within 10 minutes of entry there is no charge. Reason for exiting at the same station for me is the train is delayed by 30 minutes and I forgot to check the next t…

exactly - it seems braindead obvious to me that there should be a 5-minute window for exiting without charge. Not implementing such an obvious and trivial feature can only be interpreted as deliberately taking money without delivering value for riders because....it's possible?

Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that.

That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#30

Post by paulgb »

danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

> You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare.

What if you use the phone app and don't have a physical card with you?

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