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How to Build a Computer Model of God

bootstrappingindependence.com

21–30 of 57 posts

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#21

That's called "Simulationism". I happen to quite like it. http://www.simulation-argument.com/

It's really interesting to think about the theological implications of simulationism. If the world were really structured as described in the article (which is not the point he was making, I'm just having fun), then one has to wonder what the purpose of having simulated, self-contained intelligences would be. I like to think about the implications of a specific purpose and I have a favorite.

Suppose one was trying to train up a batch of true AIs that were generous, moral, loving, responsible, principled, etc. (think Santa, Jesus, or Fred Rogers). I would submit that the task would be much better suited to some combination of genetic programming and machine learning i.e. generate a bunch of AIs with varying characteristics and let them learn for a while and see how they do at the stated task. I think it would make a lot of sense for a simulation scientist to want to have a bunch of these around, they could do some really cool stuff for you and you wouldn't have to worry too much about IRB approval since they would be certified moral by the previous test.

What kind of test would make sense? It would have to be one with difficult moral choices, one with an opportunity for failure. One without unnecessary pain and stress, but one that allows the AIs to make moral mistakes and be held responsible for them. If the true AIs are interacting, and it makes sense that they probably would have to, then naturally the duds could make life a little miserable for the good ones, you'd want to minimize that as much as you could without restricting the ability of all AIs to choose freely among available opportunities given to them. On top of that you might put them in a hostile environment that requires work and effort for survival to see if they have what it takes to get stuff done.

Now if that doesn't sound like life I don't know what does. I that context hell doesn't really make a lot of sense (would you really punish bad AIs forever or just put them in charge of non-morally challenging and easy jobs? (my first thought was the coffee pot, but maybe putting a misbehaving AI in charge of that is not such a good idea) and "heaven" becomes more of a "gets to do cool, interesting stuff" than "chill out playing harp". From my experience many religious people tend to punt on what actually an afterlife would be for, other than it would be nice to reward us for being good. The answer to "Why can't the simulation master give the nice heaven to everybody?" is pretty clear in this context. She can't because that would be really bad for whatever task she needed moral AI for, which, if it affected a bunch of other true AIs has huge moral implications. So sorry, no offence, but based on your test results you don't get to do the cool stuff.

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the answer can be known? Several people in the world and throughout history claim to _know_ the answer through physical experiences. They are easy to dismiss as crazy, but what IF they've discovered HOW to search? Some things just can't be measured by physical apparatus (like love for example).

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Biological_ba...

Lots of "migth be" and "seems to be" in that article. I don't think we understand it or can replicate it in the laboratory.

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#23
post #11

> Despite my desire to accept religious teachings, I am constantly prevented by a simple fact: no one has found any physical evidence of something like a soul, or any mechanism which might enable a persistent consciousness beyond our current brain. For a minute, forget about "persisting beyond death". Consider consciousness, is there any conceptual model at all of how it arises purely out of the known physical laws?…

Define consciousness.

That's part of the problem :)

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#24
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Biological_ba...

Lots of "migth be" and "seems to be" in that article. I don't think we understand it or can replicate it in the laboratory.

Are you claiming that lack of current understanding proves a fundamental impossibility of doing so?

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define consciousness.

That's part of the problem :)

Then the question of whether software can have consciousness is meaningless.

As Dijkstra said, "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim."

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#26
The author is missing a key element in his model of life, one which significantly affects the outcome of the thought experiment: his simple loops are independent, they have no shared state. Real existence is not so clean---living beings are constantly being altered by their environment, and conversely altering it. It would be impossible to simply 'save the state' of a living being without saving the state of the entire universe in which it resides (the virtual machine). This makes reincarnation (or at least the very simple model presented in the article) impossible.

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#27

That's called "Simulationism". I happen to quite like it. http://www.simulation-argument.com/

It's really interesting to think about the theological implications of simulationism. If the world were really structured as described in the article (which is not the point he was making, I'm just having fun), then one has to wonder what the purpose of having simulated, self-contained intelligences would be. I like to think about the implications of a specific purpose and I have a favorite. Suppose one was trying to…

Then in that view, "God" doesn't really care about each of us more than a programmer cares about the thousands of solutions that are created and destroyed while the program is running to reach a single best.

Somehow, I don't think most religious people (with exceptions like Deists) will feel comfortable with that possibility ;)

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point up to the last sentance which, whether you intended to or not, draws a line between the worlds major religions and quasi-endorses those on one side.

What major religion doesn't endorse good deeds?

Send me an email and I'll explain.

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#29
post #12

I don't understand how your model hopes to capture any of the essential features of God as known to academic philosophers. You mention Godel incompleteness, but this only applies to sets of axioms which can be generated algorithmically. Furthermore, pure logic reveals that a transcendental first cause must be eternal, changeless (without the universe), non-physical, most likely having a mind with free will, etc. Your…

* Naturally my reason leads me to different inescapable conclusions than his.*

Which should be a big honking, flashing neon sign that you're both arguing without any facts to back you up, ie you're both just making stuff up. You might as well argue about whether Santa has white or black fur as the trim on his coat, for all of the utility that you will get out of such arguments.

Re: How to Build a Computer Model of God

#30

That's called "Simulationism". I happen to quite like it. http://www.simulation-argument.com/

It's really interesting to think about the theological implications of simulationism. If the world were really structured as described in the article (which is not the point he was making, I'm just having fun), then one has to wonder what the purpose of having simulated, self-contained intelligences would be. I like to think about the implications of a specific purpose and I have a favorite. Suppose one was trying to…

A different take on the same topic:

Greg Egan, Crystal Nights: http://ttapress.com/553/crystal-nights-by-greg-egan/

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