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Even parental leave in Europe could be better

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Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#21

Post by dagw »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #18
confuseddesi wrote: post #10

Have we been able to find any correlation between better parental leave and people being more likely to have kids/more kids? What is the goal of this improved parental leave?

A try you saying you can’t see the benefit to society of parents actually having time to raise their children? Not everything requires a peer-reviewed study.

Even if there are benefits to society, there are also costs. To make sensible policy you have to know the size of both. And I personally have no idea how big the benefit is and would no doubt need several peer-reviewed studies to work it out. Maybe it's more obvious to you.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#22

Post by bearmode »

umeshunni wrote: post #15
mortenlwk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a shit system

Why? People who pay more into the system should benefit more from it.

Because things like that perpetuate poverty. Public money should be going to those who need it, not those who already have a tremendous amount. It's very simple.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#23

Post by Amezarak »

morsch wrote: post #17
Amezarak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s somehow a very German solution to make the parents share the leave, making spending time with the baby a non renewable resource that directly deprives the other parent.

So you're saying 7 months each that cannot be shared would be preferable? Not to mention that you are legally entitled to additional unpaid leave (years, if you want). Such a weird way to construe a relatively generous and beloved solution.

No, 14 months for each parent would be better. ;)

When I say it's a very German solution, I mean that there is often something in German laws, regulations, policies, and sometimes norms were a kind of...social? element or awareness seems to be missing or lessened, and there's a stronger emphasis on the rule-in-itself or, in this case, the benefit. Certainly this policy may or may not be exclusive to Germany. But it sets off that feeling.

It's my sense that a more prosocial policy wouldn't put two stressed parents of a newborn in a situation where parents have to debate with each other, or even think about, who gets how much leave, and then know that them taking 8 months is the reason the other parent could take only 6 months.

As for beloved, well, everyone loves benefits they're entitled to, and I support parental leave benefits, but the German birthrate indicates this policy isn't motivating much behavior. "We" should be looking more closely at what we can do to create healthier social environments beyond just offering people money. This has the knock-on effect of making happier, healthier kids.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#24

Post by ecaradec »

morsch wrote: post #5
container wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it could have just said "France" instead of "Europe".

I live in France, and as of July 2021, the law allows for 25 days of paternity leave. Wow, I had no idea; that's awful. In Germany parents share 14 months at two thirds of their average salary (capped at 1800 EUR each, though). Moms get another 6 weeks before their due date. You're also entitled to more time, unpaid.

Actually there is two type of leave: Paternity leave and parental education leave. Paternity leave is 25 days for each parent with full pay usually. Parental education leave is up to 3 years with lower pay (500€/month ? but there may be some complements here and there )

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#25

Post by Ekaros »

bearmode wrote: post #22
umeshunni wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? People who pay more into the system should benefit more from it.

Because things like that perpetuate poverty. Public money should be going to those who need it, not those who already have a tremendous amount. It's very simple.

And it should be distributed equally. Just because you haven't been forced to live frugally when others have means you deserve more money than those that were forced.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#26

Post by morsch »

Amezarak wrote: post #23
morsch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying 7 months each that cannot be shared would be preferable? Not to mention that you are legally entitled to additional unpaid leave (years, if you want). Such a weird way to construe a relatively generous and beloved solution.

No, 14 months for each parent would be better. ;) When I say it's a very German solution, I mean that there is often something in German laws, regulations, policies, and sometimes norms were a kind of...social? element or awareness seems to be missing or lessened, and there's a stronger emphasis on the rule-in-itself or, in this case, the benefit. Certainly this policy may or may not be exclusive to Germany. But it s…

It's my sense that a more prosocial policy wouldn't put two stressed parents ..., and then know that them taking 8 months is the reason the other parent could take only 6 months.

People usually figure this out months in advance. Nobody I've talked to seemed to find divying parental leave particularly stressful. Maybe your experiences are different.

I still don't see what alternative you're proposing regarding parental leave other than having a fixed allocation.

I'd be open to less flexibility, mostly because it'd get more dads to take more than the current "minimum" of two months (leaving twelve months to the mom). I don't think that's a very popular (and politically viable) position, though.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#27

Post by confuseddesi »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #18
confuseddesi wrote: post #10

Have we been able to find any correlation between better parental leave and people being more likely to have kids/more kids? What is the goal of this improved parental leave?

A try you saying you can’t see the benefit to society of parents actually having time to raise their children? Not everything requires a peer-reviewed study.

I do see the benefit of parents having time to raise their kids in society. But I have also seen explicit comments on HN that people don’t have kids because we don’t have enough benefits. If the goal is simply “give people a year off so they can have their one kid and then be done with it”, so be it. But then we shouldn’t be advocating for these policies as a solution to anything besides giving parents a long paid vacation.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#29

Post by parski »

I live in Sweden where parents combined get 480 days parental leave that we can divide between us with some restrictions. For example 90 days each are reserved for each parent and cannot be transferred. We also get ten days each right after the baby is born that don't count toward the 480 days. Me and my wife had our first child in May. I was off work until mid july, first my ten days and then I took a few weeks vacation. Now my wife is on maternal leave until January when we switch and I go on paternal leave. I will be away from work from January until August. If we have any days left we can use them until the child is 12 years old.

I think this is a very good system. Me and my wife have been talking about how valuable it has been for us to spend the first couple of months together and bonding with our child, both learning what signals mean hunger, gas or being tired.

I work from home so I'm still able to help my wife with taking care of the baby, for which I'm very thankful. We take a long walk at lunch every day and if I need a break I can be with my family. I feel like I live in the greatest country on earth.

Re: Even parental leave in Europe could be better

#30

Post by throwaway22032 »

bogantech wrote: post #28
throwaway22032 wrote: post #20

It's utterly ludicrous that anyone would be in a position in which they would have to beg, cap in hand, for the time to see their children. Just say no, live a simpler life if needed...

Who needs food or a roof over their heads right??

These things can be obtained without spending 100% of lifetime revenue.
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