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For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

nytimes.com

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Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#21

Post by lozenge »

easrng wrote: post #15
Fargoan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I don't know anything about screen readers or how blind people use the web, but I'm surprised that a strictly text website like HN would be inaccessible to blind people.

It uses table layouts and has no skip links.

Root, parent, prev and next are all skip links aren't they?

Or do you mean on the front page?

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#22

Post by Eduard »

idreyn wrote: post #8

Increasingly I think the screenreader/ARIA proposition of navigating a (linearized ordering of) elements on a 2D page is fundamentally limiting for blind users. The web needs a more robust model of application state from which text, audio, and GUI representations can be derived. Our applications clearly structure "objects" and their "methods" under the hood, and it should be possible to present these more directly to…

Maybe I don't get what you want to express, but screen readers allow for alternative presentations of an HTML document, allowing for alternative modes of content discovery, e.g. hierarchical outlines of headlines and "landmarks".

Several ARIA attributes further allow for communicating the current application state, e.g. whether content has changed (aria-live), a button is in a pressed state (aria-pressed), or a menu is opened (aria-expanded).

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#23

Post by edflsafoiewq »

lozenge wrote: post #21
easrng wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It uses table layouts and has no skip links.

Root, parent, prev and next are all skip links aren't they? Or do you mean on the front page?

Curiously those are all aria-hidden.

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#24

Post by politelemon »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #14

One idle idea I had at some a11y conference was this: as a person doing a lot of CMS customization, almost all the software I write is an accommodation to all kinds of people. Specifically, I personally can just write content straight to a database with my DB client. I can write nice, valid HTML. I can crop photos and output them just fine with various CLI and GUI applications. The people I work with cannot. So I wri…

Thanks for sharing this, it's a really good way of framing the issue in a way that others will find relatable. I am going to use this at my workplace, and hopefully it will, at the very least, plant the seeds in their minds.

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#27

Post by K0nserv »

vaylian wrote: post #25

Are there any positive examples of popular websites which are also well designed in terms of accessibility? I don't think that accessibility and modern design have to be at odds, but it would be interesting to see how this is achieved in practise.

gov.uk is the quintessential example, but I'm not sure it meets the bar for "popular". Sure, lots of people use it, but that's because they have to.

I don't rely on accessibility tools myself(outside of Vimium for keyboard navigation) but I get the impression that Twitter is pretty well done. In between adding support for alt tags on user uploaded content, actually implementing a custom focus language, and bespoke screen reader labelling they seem to at least care about it.

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#28

Post by ufo »

jonah-archive wrote: post #11

I would recommend that everyone go check out Sian Bahram’s 2016 talk on computing while blind. At around 6:30 he specifically addresses how inaccessible HN is to a visually impaired user: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1r55efei5c

Oof. Is there anything that could be done to make HN more accessible? Who do we call for this?

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#29

Post by superjan »

at_a_remove wrote: post #10

I have ranted about this before here, many times. When I worked at the university, doing their websites, I simply could not get accessibility on anyone's radar: my boss, the people in the power structure nearby, the awful design people who saw the Web as a means to deliver photography and, if forced, text in a brochure format. I had my own tools -- making sure the XHTML and CSS were valid, testing on multiple browser…

I appreciatie your engagement. But as an engineer, be aware that many of your colleagues mostly want to please their boss, and have a hard time imagining any disability. If accessibility is not on the organization’s radar, the best strategy is suggesting techniques and requirements that benefit disabled AND some other interest, such as SEO, scaling the site to mobile screens, (automatic) testing, config options that benefit multiple user groups. This will ensure that your colleagues and management have a stake in building and maintaining the accessibility features.

Lastly, I found the following video enlightening: “Accessibility [for game developers] on a shoestring” GDC 2021 https://youtu.be/PiCsvZZh5-k

Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws

#30

Post by Vinnl »

at_a_remove wrote: post #10

I have ranted about this before here, many times. When I worked at the university, doing their websites, I simply could not get accessibility on anyone's radar: my boss, the people in the power structure nearby, the awful design people who saw the Web as a means to deliver photography and, if forced, text in a brochure format. I had my own tools -- making sure the XHTML and CSS were valid, testing on multiple browser…

> glasses to distort my vision

This would be awesome swag at conferences that are frequented by frontend engineers.

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