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Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

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21–30 of 68 posts

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On this note, the Royal Bank of Canada used a DOS-like system well into the 2000s. The tellers were amazingly proficient with it, entering data, hitting tab-tab-tab, entering more data, tab-tab-tab, etc. When they switched to Windows, you could see how much the point-and-click interface slowed them down.

When we first starting writing windows programs back then, one of the main considerations of a desktop / client server CRUD program was getting the tabbing order right. A lot of those green screen / dos / mini computer CRUD programs were carefully designed around productivity with a keyboard.

>A lot of those green screen / dos / mini computer CRUD programs were carefully designed around productivity with a keyboard.

Some of the best late DOS programs did a good job of optimizing for both keyboard & mouse also.

There's a cargo installation around here where they got a high-dollar mainframe in the 1970's and the data could be accessed by the few plant employees having CRT terminals. Even into the early 80's independent contractors had to do their field work by hand, and largely back in the office too since PC's were slowly adopted.

Once desktop IBMs became accepted for bigger companies, the whole shebang was rewritten for DOS by the mid-80's and their people had to get accustomed to that.

Finally with the migration (of the rest of the world) to Windows 3 and 9x, there was another DOS rewrite to handle an alternative database.

Each of these was ungodly expensive and took forever. Nobody wanted to repeat that.

Independent contractors like us were then allowed to have a copy of the key DOS modules on our laptops and the preferred procedure was to reboot to the bare metal DOS underlying the Windows 9x shell, and run the program in DOS.

Since then there really hasn't been much more to get accustomed to, each generation of everyday operators is just fine with doing things as they have always been done.

Fortunately for many hardware configurations it would also run from the command prompt window in Windows, but similarly to DOS games, this didn't work for everybody.

This is probably what has made it possible for geeks to kludge it into functionality until I had to figure it out on Windows 10 a few years ago. They were blown away when I gave them the first mouse they had in years.

Some contractors have never used it and just do without, it's only one marine terminal but it's the one where we happen to have people stationed 24/7.

So next week I have to show an IT guy how to get it to run in the latest 64-bit Windows 10 using vDOS again.

DOS really will still boot on the bare metal in BIOS mode with a CSM enabled as long as you have a well prepared Active FAT32 volume on an MBR layout storage device recognized by BIOS, etc.

And I did find the settings to get the DOS app to run from the 32-bit Windows 10 command prompt last time.

Too bad they have to use 64-bit Windows and GPT layout on the SSD, with UEFI booting.

The good emulator turned out to be vDOS.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#22

Was DOS considered to be better than Windows back then?

DOS had a lot of great games and programs that worked very well. It took years to build up the ecosystem and the performance, graphics and other techniques.

While Windows could multi-task and had other features that were theoretically better, there was still some catching up to do with regard to available software. DOS was also more stable, until the NT kernel was integrated into Windows. Windows 3.11 was quite stable, but 95 and 98 had issues.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we first starting writing windows programs back then, one of the main considerations of a desktop / client server CRUD program was getting the tabbing order right. A lot of those green screen / dos / mini computer CRUD programs were carefully designed around productivity with a keyboard.

>A lot of those green screen / dos / mini computer CRUD programs were carefully designed around productivity with a keyboard. Some of the best late DOS programs did a good job of optimizing for both keyboard & mouse also. There's a cargo installation around here where they got a high-dollar mainframe in the 1970's and the data could be accessed by the few plant employees having CRT terminals. Even into the early 80's…

You don't see vDOS mentioned much, although my limited understanding is that it's designed to get all those old business oriented DOS apps working (instead of games) i.e. it works with the original version of Wordstar that no longer runs on newer DOSs due to the way file handling works.

It's fascinating to me just how long you can keep old programs going in the modern age. Emulation is such a life saver.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#25
post #17

It’s odd to me these days to see a DOS defender. I grew up on DOS, but these days would take a Linux command line over it any day. I guess you need X to do anything graphical on Linux whereas pure dos games exist?

In the olden days we used SDL ports of games that used a framebuffer, just the same as in DOS.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition to Windows was a lot more painful than the glossy history suggests. DOS had a huge eco-system of programs, TSRs to help you context switch, incredibly popular word processing and spreadsheet packages and solid networking if you had Netware available. Windows wouldn't even load on some PC's depending on which memory manager you had installed, what else you were trying to run and what kind of network sta…

On this note, the Royal Bank of Canada used a DOS-like system well into the 2000s. The tellers were amazingly proficient with it, entering data, hitting tab-tab-tab, entering more data, tab-tab-tab, etc. When they switched to Windows, you could see how much the point-and-click interface slowed them down.

It's a stretch of a tangent, but this reminded me of the Therac-25 incident in which experienced operators of the machine could enter commands too quickly and cause it to enter an unexpected state.

> One failure occurred when a particular sequence of keystrokes was entered on the VT-100 terminal which controlled the PDP-11 computer: if the operator were to press "X" to (erroneously) select 25 MeV photon mode, then use "cursor up" to edit the input to "E" to (correctly) select 25 MeV Electron mode, then "Enter", all within eight seconds of the first keypress, well within the capability of an experienced user of the machine. These edits weren't noticed as it would take 8 seconds for startup, so it would go with the default setup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On this note, the Royal Bank of Canada used a DOS-like system well into the 2000s. The tellers were amazingly proficient with it, entering data, hitting tab-tab-tab, entering more data, tab-tab-tab, etc. When they switched to Windows, you could see how much the point-and-click interface slowed them down.

When we first starting writing windows programs back then, one of the main considerations of a desktop / client server CRUD program was getting the tabbing order right. A lot of those green screen / dos / mini computer CRUD programs were carefully designed around productivity with a keyboard.

I wish tab order was considered more in some applications. One of our in-house apps has had a lot of fields added over time and it's a jumbled mess trying to tab through it, essentially forcing point/click when a keyboard would otherwise be enough.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#28
post #17

It’s odd to me these days to see a DOS defender. I grew up on DOS, but these days would take a Linux command line over it any day. I guess you need X to do anything graphical on Linux whereas pure dos games exist?

In the olden days we used SDL ports of games that used a framebuffer, just the same as in DOS.

I wonder, Does a version of Doom exist doing this? Every version of Doom I have seen for Linux over the years required X

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#29
post #9

I read that as DR DOS (Digital Research) which I was enamored of until MS DOS 5.0 came out. Digital Research made GEM (a Mac-like desktop GUI) and included a pared down version called ViewMAX in DR DOS 5.0 but ultimately didn't deliver on providing a Mac-like interface.

Yeah I too loved DR-DOS until that was supplanted by Windows 3.11 and then Windows 95.

Of all the flavours of DOS it was the best at the time.

Re: Dr. DOS Betamax's DOS Fansite

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition to Windows was a lot more painful than the glossy history suggests. DOS had a huge eco-system of programs, TSRs to help you context switch, incredibly popular word processing and spreadsheet packages and solid networking if you had Netware available. Windows wouldn't even load on some PC's depending on which memory manager you had installed, what else you were trying to run and what kind of network sta…

On this note, the Royal Bank of Canada used a DOS-like system well into the 2000s. The tellers were amazingly proficient with it, entering data, hitting tab-tab-tab, entering more data, tab-tab-tab, etc. When they switched to Windows, you could see how much the point-and-click interface slowed them down.

The Czech taxation authority has the "Automated Tax Information System" as the primary IS. It has been running since 1993, it has a classic DOS text-mode interface and its maintenance cost is huge, which is completely fine with its supplier, IBM, which is the only subject allowed to make any modifications to it (per the contract). Textbook case of vendor lock-in. An official study of what to do with the system from 2016 (including a screenshot): https://www.financnisprava.cz/assets/cs/prilohy/f-novinky/20...
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