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Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

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Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#21

Post by burrows »

joshuamorton wrote: post #15
burrows wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state (thru taxes) is funding the universities, right? Speaking for myself, if I was funding a university I would do things to encourage intellectual diversity. I’m more sympathetic to the more general view that education is not the business of state governments, period.

> if I was funding a university I would do things to encourage intellectual diversity. The first amendment prohibits the state from doing such a thing. They must allow diversity of opinion, they cannot require it (this would be silly, where does it end, Edwards v. Aguillard and Kitzmiller v. Dover seem pretty clear on this).

The first amendment places limits on the conditions that a state government can attach to university funding?

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#22

Post by jimmygrapes »

Link to the actual bill, since any summary (including mine below) will inevitably be skewed to the point of misrepresentation: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/233/BillText/er/P... [PDF]

FWIW it seems perfectly fine to me. Opposition based on assumed intent of DeSantis (or even if he explicitly states his intent) is meritless in the face of the actual text of the bill, which when read properly actually enables the very things conservatives are worried about (CRT, Marxism, etc), so long as it isn't the only thing taught. It also clarifies how lecture recordings can be used and explicitly prevents such recordings from being published without the lecturer's permission. Seems reasonable.

I'm sure someone will chime in and say something like "but that means flat earth and creationism and gay conversion theory and holocaust denial and [insert your favorite terrible thing] will be taught!"

Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. And if they are, they will be taught alongside the oppositional stance. Surely the correct stance will win out, right? After all, the only reason flat earth or holocaust denial et al. gain any traction is because people are not properly taught the truth and are instead stuck in their own self-reinforcing bubble. And if the truth is not convincing for those people, either there's a failure in teaching or there's some other irreconcilable barrier that won't be fixed by "just don't bring it up".

If you're still not convinced, consider the idea of systemic racism: how do you teach that this exists without teaching that there are in fact racists and explaining what those racists believe? You must always present the other side to some extent in order to explain why they are wrong.

This bill does not require that every belief or concept be taught as true; it simply requires that the other belief or concept not be entirely omitted from discussion.

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#23

Post by otter-rock »

jimmygrapes wrote: post #22

Link to the actual bill, since any summary (including mine below) will inevitably be skewed to the point of misrepresentation: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/233/BillText/er/P... [PDF] FWIW it seems perfectly fine to me. Opposition based on assumed intent of DeSantis (or even if he explicitly states his intent) is meritless in the face of the actual text of the bill, which when read properly actually enab…

> enables the very things conservatives are worried about (CRT, Marxism, etc), so long as it isn't the only thing taught

Any subject was already allowed before. What more could be allowed?

Here's a class on CRT from a few years ago. I can't see what good the bill would do here. But I can think of a lot of ways to harass people with it, or get the class cancelled out of fear of being sued or fired.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/past-courses/view/119820244

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#24

Post by throwoutway »

mhh__ wrote: post #14
burrows wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state (thru taxes) is funding the universities, right? Speaking for myself, if I was funding a university I would do things to encourage intellectual diversity. I’m more sympathetic to the more general view that education is not the business of state governments, period.

Intellectual diversity imposed upon universities (rather than being some quasi-constitutional thing to sue over) is in my view solely of use to grifters and morons. It sounds like a nice idea but it's so easily manipulated (especially by politicians looking to signal to their base rather than actually fix something even out of naivete)

It’s already happening by left-wing politics. Discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31149311

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#25

Post by joshuamorton »

burrows wrote: post #21
joshuamorton wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if I was funding a university I would do things to encourage intellectual diversity. The first amendment prohibits the state from doing such a thing. They must allow diversity of opinion, they cannot require it (this would be silly, where does it end, Edwards v. Aguillard and Kitzmiller v. Dover seem pretty clear on this).

The first amendment places limits on the conditions that a state government can attach to university funding?

See South Dakota v. Dole, which holds (among other things) that federal funding cannot be granted contingently on a requirement that would otherwise violate the constitution or be "coercive". This would almost certainly apply to the states via incorporation. So while a state could choose to not fund universities at all, if it chooses to, it cannot favor certain universities based on a speech-test.

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#26

Post by smegsicle »

pvaldes wrote: post #20

Some people sound more and more desperate each day for provoking people to riot. The more angry, the better. Why do they do this? and why now? This is the good question. I would assume (I'm just speculating) that the goal is to make the Capitol assault look better by comparison. Or sell the idea that it was antifa, or galvanize their own forces again under the "them or us", "kill or be killed" etc... idea. If everybo…

the capitol assault already looks insignificant compared to the blm riots, which seemed to be a successful implementation of "if everybody is rioting, nobody is"

there certainly does seem to be some kind of effort to push the pendulum further and further in both directions

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#27

Post by joshuamorton »

throwoutway wrote: post #24
mhh__ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual diversity imposed upon universities (rather than being some quasi-constitutional thing to sue over) is in my view solely of use to grifters and morons. It sounds like a nice idea but it's so easily manipulated (especially by politicians looking to signal to their base rather than actually fix something even out of naivete)

It’s already happening by left-wing politics. Discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31149311

How is that intellectual diversity? Isn't the common refrain that we should be enforcing intellectual diversity and not other kinds, specifically because the other kinds of diversity don't result in intellectual diversity?

Of course, you shouldn't worry yourself over this too much, Canada's not the US, and while that is a government mandated policy there, it would be illegal here.

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#28

Post by burrows »

joshuamorton wrote: post #25
burrows wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment places limits on the conditions that a state government can attach to university funding?

See South Dakota v. Dole, which holds (among other things) that federal funding cannot be granted contingently on a requirement that would otherwise violate the constitution or be "coercive". This would almost certainly apply to the states via incorporation. So while a state could choose to not fund universities at all, if it chooses to, it cannot favor certain universities based on a speech-test.

Then you are arguing that these surveys would abridge free speech?

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#29

Post by ROTMetro »

nradov wrote: post #19
quantum_state wrote: post #3

People should challenge this law in court and shot it down. One’s political view is none of the business of a state government, period.

I think this is a bad law, but what specific legal theory could be used to challenge it in court? Please cite the specific section of the law that is in violation of the US Constitution or federal law?

Freedom of speech also covers compelled speech so I would think this would violate that.

Re: Desantis signs bill req. FL students, professors to register political views

#30

Post by ROTMetro »

burrows wrote: post #28
joshuamorton wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See South Dakota v. Dole, which holds (among other things) that federal funding cannot be granted contingently on a requirement that would otherwise violate the constitution or be "coercive". This would almost certainly apply to the states via incorporation. So while a state could choose to not fund universities at all, if it chooses to, it cannot favor certain universities based on a speech-test.

Then you are arguing that these surveys would abridge free speech?

These surveys are compelled speech. Freedom of speech not only means you are free to speak out, but that you can not be compelled to speak.
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