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I am a programmer

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: I am a programmer

#21

Post by allbutlost »

TamDenholm wrote: post #14

Jacques mentioned in the article that someone doing COBOL gets paid megabucks, i did a very quick search on UK job sites for contractors and they seem to make the same day rate as PHP developers. Is it different elsewhere? Is it just in permanent jobs that it commands more money? Anyone know where and why COBOL gets the big bucks?

I know a guy (UK) who was able to retire after consulting for COBOL y2k compliance. I think big bucks were floating around back then at least, not sure about the current situation.

Re: I am a programmer

#22

Post by rhizome31 »

Xixi wrote: post #13
itsnotvalid wrote: post #2

Although there is no mentioning of any references, I have a clue that it is a response to "Don't call yourself a programmer" ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 )

I think that if jacquesm was living in Japan like patio11 (I also live in Japan), he wouldn't call himself a programmer either. Because a programmer in Japan is someone that takes a spec or a task, written by an engineer, and "translate" it into code. A programmer doesn't solve any problem, he implements another person solution, and that's it. But at the end of the day it's not strictly about semantics, I think it's…

I wonder what those specs written by engineers look like. How much details do they provide? Is the architecture of the project already specified? Algorithms and data structures already provided? If that's the case then wouldn't it be quicker for those engineers to directly type their specs in a high-level language? If that's not the case I think there are still a lot of problems for the programmer to solve.

Re: I am a programmer

#23

Post by rhizome31 »

akie wrote: post #17

I am a programmer, but I am not a programmer. The problem is, 'programming' as such is the end of a process. That process begins with talking to a customer about his or her idea/business problem, and asking questions and (basically) doing consulting to help the customer understand what his or her problem really is. Once that's clear, I write a proposal that outlines how I would address that problem, all in strictly h…

> The problem is, 'programming' as such is the end of a process.

In a lot of cases it's probably more accurate to say it's one part of the cycle. If programming really ends up being the end of the process, something might have gone wrong with the project.

Re: I am a programmer

#24

Post by akie »

rhizome31 wrote: post #23
akie wrote: post #17

I am a programmer, but I am not a programmer. The problem is, 'programming' as such is the end of a process. That process begins with talking to a customer about his or her idea/business problem, and asking questions and (basically) doing consulting to help the customer understand what his or her problem really is. Once that's clear, I write a proposal that outlines how I would address that problem, all in strictly h…

> The problem is, 'programming' as such is the end of a process. In a lot of cases it's probably more accurate to say it's one part of the cycle. If programming really ends up being the end of the process, something might have gone wrong with the project.

Yeah ok ;-) The programming part itself is a whole different process, including a lot of communication with the customer. It is not really the end of the process in that sense - it's the last process in the big overarching process.

Re: I am a programmer

#25

Post by emmelaich »

There's an inverse snobbery in effect here to an extent. If you've made it / made a name for yourself you can call yourself a programmer.

I don't know know whether it was the recently departed dmr or ken, but one of them answered 'programmer' when asked what he put as a profession on his landing/visa/immigration card.

Re: I am a programmer

#26

Post by johnyzee »

The problem I have with Patrick's essay ("you are not a programmer") is that it addresses a situation that hardly any developer ever finds himself in. If I go to interview for an engineer position, it matters exactly not one bit that I try to pass myself off as a solutions architect or a business problem solver, except for possibly some awkward glances back and forth. All they want to know is how long I've been coding Blub, which frameworks I use and why did I quit my last job? If all is well I will start on Monday with checking out the SVN repo and start getting to know the code. Should I start trying to analyze the company's business processes that would be an awkward conversation indeed with the department manager.

I think that is the reality most developers find themselves in. I doubt it's been any different for Patrick until the consultancy spinoffs he can now pull on account of his personal brand.

So I kind of agree with Jacques here, with the exception that I don't call myself a programmer in conversation with people outside the field, since it sounds a bit like "punch card operator". That doesn't change the fact that I really am a programmer first and foremost.

Re: I am a programmer

#27

Post by xiaoma »

akie wrote: post #17

I am a programmer, but I am not a programmer. The problem is, 'programming' as such is the end of a process. That process begins with talking to a customer about his or her idea/business problem, and asking questions and (basically) doing consulting to help the customer understand what his or her problem really is. Once that's clear, I write a proposal that outlines how I would address that problem, all in strictly h…

>And then, finally, three months since that first meeting, I can start with the programming.

In my world (iOS), if it takes you three months to even start moving, you'll miss the market opportunities far too often. 3 months ago, iOS5 storyboarding and multitasking weren't even a concern and most developers were split between Xcode 3.x and 4.0!

Re: I am a programmer

#28

Post by djinn »

I just think the debate about identifying oneself "as", like pointed by other comments, is specific to a cultural context. In India specifically "programming" is as much about sector of work like "Information Technology" as it would be individuals profession. So most of the time "programmer" or "software engineer" inter-changeably explains the where one works for someone outside the profession. In case the person shows further interest, one could go further into what exactly is the span of work. So unlike Patrick's essay tries to convey, "programmer" per se is not a restrictive definition.

Re: I am a programmer

#29

Post by CodeMage »

Excellent post all in all, but the part I consider the most important is:

Job security, job satisfaction, good pay. Pick any two.

I've been keenly aware of that for a while now. For someone like me, someone who chooses the first two, it stings a lot until you come to terms with it and make it your conscious choice. It all has to do with one's priorities and no combination is bad in itself. You just need to be aware of these things or it might be a source of unhappiness for you.

Re: I am a programmer

#30

Post by sixtofour »

Yes, me too, I'm a programmer. That's how I think of myself, regardless of what infinitely varied tasks I may do. And me too, that's what I blurt out when people ask me what I do.

In more formal contexts, like resumes and job apps, I call myself a software developer, because that's a more encompassing description of what I do. Software development is not just programming, even if that's the most obvious and the most fun part.

My employers call me whatever they want to call me. That's been technical staff member, programmer, software engineer, etc.

I never voluntarily call myself a software engineer. I've never worked under the supervision of a PE who was legally responsible for my work, and I've never been on a track working toward my PE. Very few software developers work in that environment.

I don't mind the informalization of the term software engineer, but I don't use it because I've never, ever worked in an environment where programming or software development was practiced as an engineering discipline using national or international standards of practice or product. Software development where I've been, and where most people are, is much more an individual art than a community science. So I don't want to give the impression that what I'm doing is in any way a legal, formal engineering practice.

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