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Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

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Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#21

The main cause of heat is the inefficiency of the trains. All the brake energy is converted to heat. The motors and controllers are pretty inefficient too - modern electric motors+controllers are 95-98% efficient, whereas most tube trains are more like 40-60% efficient. For example, to go slowly, they simply put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy!! Perhaps not coincidentally, the inefficiency…

>>put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy

That Is Insane!!

Rail needs a complete rethink of design from the ground up. There are certainly vast efficiencies from rolling steel wheels on steel rails. But I've seen little evidence of light-weighting and indeed active resistance to steps like making cars using composites, which would save enormous amounts of energy and cost over the lifetime, as well as reduce maintenance costs. Yet their approach to everything seems to be sticking with an approach of 'brute force and ignorance'. Sure that works in the 19th century when you're just starting to put some carbon in iron and make it stronger than pig iron, but materials are sooo far past that now, yet it's still the same old approach. (&yes, I strongly support the Chesterton's Fence checking but this seems way beyond that)

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#22
post #21

The main cause of heat is the inefficiency of the trains. All the brake energy is converted to heat. The motors and controllers are pretty inefficient too - modern electric motors+controllers are 95-98% efficient, whereas most tube trains are more like 40-60% efficient. For example, to go slowly, they simply put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy!! Perhaps not coincidentally, the inefficiency…

>>put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy That Is Insane!! Rail needs a complete rethink of design from the ground up. There are certainly vast efficiencies from rolling steel wheels on steel rails. But I've seen little evidence of light-weighting and indeed active resistance to steps like making cars using composites, which would save enormous amounts of energy and cost over the lifetime, as w…

Yeah, it's insane because it's 100% not true.

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#23

I think the Montreal metro faces a lot of these same issues. It works out in the winter where you don't need to actively heat the space. In the summer, it can be unbearable. I'm not sure if the type of rolling stock (rubber tires + tunnel track) has a major difference from other typical subway cars.

It really doesn't matter much - any amount of heat going into the underground system that is not able to be dispelled in a year-round cycle will heat the ground eventually.

Reducing the heat entering the system slows it down, but at some point you have to cool it again.

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#24
post #22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy That Is Insane!! Rail needs a complete rethink of design from the ground up. There are certainly vast efficiencies from rolling steel wheels on steel rails. But I've seen little evidence of light-weighting and indeed active resistance to steps like making cars using composites, which would save enormous amounts of energy and cost over the lifetime, as w…

Yeah, it's insane because it's 100% not true.

Surprising then that a company sells resistors just for rail speed control applications:

https://www.cressall.com/applications/rail-traction-dynamic-...

(scroll down to "MOTOR STARTING AND SPEED CONTROL RESISTORS")

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#25
post #6

Regenerative braking would improve a lot with not just the heat issue, but also air quality. Commuters on the London Underground get a characteristic grey/black snot from the brake dust they inhale. If you stare into the tunnel after a train left you can literally see a haze of brake dust in the air.

I wonder if you could fit a magnetic braking system mainly at platforms, when engaged trains would be slowed. That could reduce weight on the trains themselves? Thinking wildly, tube trains are like pistons (they're actual plungers, I guess) if you had a smooth walled section of tunnel then you could have a seal at the head of the train that fans out and provides pneumatic braking, you could maybe use the pressure to…

piston effect already does a lot of ventilation work

the more elegant solution in use around in the world is to put the stations on hills

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's insane because it's 100% not true.

Surprising then that a company sells resistors just for rail speed control applications: https://www.cressall.com/applications/rail-traction-dynamic-... (scroll down to "MOTOR STARTING AND SPEED CONTROL RESISTORS")

Thats not to "go slower" but to slow down:

Whenever possible regenerative braking is used. In this case the drive motors convert the kinetic energy of the train into electricity, which is fed back into the power supply and used elsewhere on the network.

If it cannot be absorbed by the system the energy may have to be dissipated with braking resistors. These braking resistors can be either mounted on the rail vehicle or as a fixed (trackside) installation connected to the third rail or overhead catenary via Automatic Assured Receptivity Unit (AARU) systems.

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's insane because it's 100% not true.

Surprising then that a company sells resistors just for rail speed control applications: https://www.cressall.com/applications/rail-traction-dynamic-... (scroll down to "MOTOR STARTING AND SPEED CONTROL RESISTORS")

That section starts with "This was the traditional approach...". I guess the Bakerloo and Picadilly line trains from the 1970s might still use them on London Underground? Wikipedia mentions stuff like GTO thyristers and IGBTs on descriptions of stuff like the 1992 (Central line) and 1995 (Northern) stock trains, so the next oldest trains from the 1990s seem to have modern(ish) power control. And new trains are coming to the Picadilly line, and presumably must come to the Bakerloo at some point before the old ones fall apart.

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#29
post #21

The main cause of heat is the inefficiency of the trains. All the brake energy is converted to heat. The motors and controllers are pretty inefficient too - modern electric motors+controllers are 95-98% efficient, whereas most tube trains are more like 40-60% efficient. For example, to go slowly, they simply put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy!! Perhaps not coincidentally, the inefficiency…

>>put a big resistor in the circuit and waste 50+% of the energy That Is Insane!! Rail needs a complete rethink of design from the ground up. There are certainly vast efficiencies from rolling steel wheels on steel rails. But I've seen little evidence of light-weighting and indeed active resistance to steps like making cars using composites, which would save enormous amounts of energy and cost over the lifetime, as w…

I don't think it's anywhere near 50% that is wasted, since if I understand correctly the resistors are used only during initial acceleration.

But anyway, the affected trains are the oldest in use in Britain, from 1972 (Bakerloo Line, 36 trains) and 1973 (Piccadilly Line, 87 trains), out of 620 passenger trains across the whole system. New trains have been ordered and should be introduced in 2025.

There's been a 10 year delay, due in part to the 1990s attempt to privatize chunks of the system.

Re: Cooling the tube – Engineering heat out of the Underground (2017)

#30

Could using magnets to break and start be a solution to reduce the heat generation ?

Using magnets will release exactly the same amount of heat since energy cannot be destroyed (unless you mean by that using regenerative braking, that does work since you can "recycle" the energy)
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