Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#21

Post by tablespoon » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #12

kurupt213 wrote: post #11

This is the obvious end result. All those whiners revolting against returning to the office are destroying their own employment opportunities

> All those whiners It never ceases to amaze me how completely unsympathetic people are towards other people just for wanting different things.

>> All those whiners

> It never ceases to amaze me how completely unsympathetic people are towards other people just for wanting different things.

Some of it is whining, though. Whining isn't a preference, it's an attitude and style of expressing that preference.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#22

Post by joshstrange » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

Agreed, wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. I've yet to see it. I have nothing against foreign developers but most of the outsourcing shops I've had the displeasure of working with are 0.2-0.5X developers at "only" 0.6+X of the cost. I know there are developers in other countries that can run circles around me but they aren't working for pennies. Also this mindset completely disregards things like timezones, language barriers, and understanding/relating to your customers.

Every experience I've had with "let's save money by using this outsourcing firm" has been terrible and a complete failure, even if it took the execs years before they would admit it and reverse course. Sure, for a few years you can coast on what the developers you laid off/fired built but cracks will start to show and you can't just slot in developers like RAM sticks. It takes time to fully understand any system but execs are so shortsighted and oblivious to gross hacks being done to get something to work. It only takes a few years of outsourced code management before it turns into a house of cards. Hell, most software already is somewhat of a house of cards, if you bring in people that do not care about anything but billable hours they aren't even going to maintain the current mess, they will do the easy thing every time until your software is completely unmanageable.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#23

Post by thenerdhead » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

They’ve been saying this for over two decades now. Nothing has changed. We know what the cost of cheaper labor means in software. We also know that people are generally happier working from home if they are tech workers.

The companies that embrace remote first or even hybrid scenarios will be the winner in the long run. Happier employees = better outcomes.

If my job could be outsourced, it would’ve been ten years ago when I first joined the workforce as a remote employee.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#24

Post by bin_bash » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

The article doesn’t even mention RTO so I don’t see how you came to that conclusion. This article is about scare tactics to get more visas.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#25

Post by jghn » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

TimPC wrote: post #19

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually yes I do. Feel very strongly that the tech work from home movement is shining a light on something they don’t want a light shined on. They should be vehemently making cases that teams need to be in offices together and that “face to face is best” to keep their jobs in their citadel.

Or maybe it’s enough to have people in the same time zone working the same hours and communicating using technology. There is a big difference between questions being answered right away and questions being answered overnight that one still has to consider for outsourcing.

Right. Both sides of this debate have been disingenuous.

The remote-or-bust crowd always seems to assume salaries would stay the same. Most, not all, but most software development jobs don't require specialty skills. If the job can truly be done anywhere, why would we assume the answer will be to pay SF salaries all around the world?

The must-be-in-office crowd tends to ignore that most of the time remote work mostly is fine. Yes, everyone has an anecdote of this going horribly wrong. But they ignore that minimizing costs as first priority is not going to yield optimal results. And a lot of those horror stories involve bottom rate outsourcing operations.

There exists a world in which outsourcing/remote covers most needs but pays less than we're used to in the US software industry. It's neither the penny on the dollar model of traditional outsourcing nor junior devs making 500K TC in theo there extreme.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#26

Post by joshstrange » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #17

zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

I think they were sitting around saying "The outsourcing of the 1990s failed because of poor communication; there's no replacement for regular face-to-face meetings"

I have no doubt there are execs sitting around thinking that, they are wrong but I don't doubt it. There are a how slew of reasons why outsourcing fails time and time again and "poor communication" isn't very high on that list.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#27

Post by dnndev » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

It’s more about trust than finances.

Face to face and remote work within the companies legal boundaries is the safer choice. Remote work with no legal leverage is scary when you think about handing over company assets.

But then again, many large companies have managers looking to climb the ladder so they outsource at all costs to make the budget look better- it’s a risky gamble and sometimes it just works. Most times this ends with years of waste in other areas of the company.

Trust issues will limit the adoption of remote work.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#28

Post by tablespoon » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #16

Can’t say I’m too concerned. Every project I’ve ever worked on that outsourced something ended in failure or a major decline in quality. We used to need 3 accountants in the US, now we have an army of BPO accountants and none of them know what they’re doing and things take longer than ever. Outsourcing doesn’t work. It’s not even clear it costs less when you factor in the decline in quality, delays, and extra work ne…

> Can’t say I’m too concerned. Every project I’ve ever worked on that outsourced something ended in failure or a major decline in quality. We used to need 3 accountants in the US, now we have an army of BPO accountants and none of them know what they’re doing and things take longer than ever.

Honestly, I don't think corporate decision-makers really care about those metrics.

> It’s not even clear it costs less when you factor in the decline in quality, delays, and extra work needed by everyone else to monitor the outsourced work. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other then? That's not a very persuasive argument against outsourcing.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#29

Post by tablespoon » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

throwmeariver1 wrote: post #9

ushakov wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because that’s not how capitalism works capitalism means making profits making profits means lowering costs outsourcing is a way to lower costs

eh... if the only way for you to increase profits is to cut costs you have a problem that will accelerate after you have nothing more to cut.

>> making profits means lowering costs

> eh... if the only way for you to increase profits is to cut costs you have a problem that will accelerate after you have nothing more to cut.

You're nitpicking, the GP's post can be easily repaired by reading that as "lowering costs means making more profits."

Businesses like to turn all the dials to increase their profits.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#30

Post by bin_bash » Tue, May 10, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

jghn wrote: post #25

TimPC wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe it’s enough to have people in the same time zone working the same hours and communicating using technology. There is a big difference between questions being answered right away and questions being answered overnight that one still has to consider for outsourcing.

Right. Both sides of this debate have been disingenuous. The remote-or-bust crowd always seems to assume salaries would stay the same. Most, not all, but most software development jobs don't require specialty skills. If the job can truly be done anywhere, why would we assume the answer will be to pay SF salaries all around the world? The must-be-in-office crowd tends to ignore that most of the time remote work mostly…

Even the most highly paid juniors (L3) don’t make 250K let alone 500K.