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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

bbc.com

21–30 of 368 posts

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#21
This would line up with a broader trend I've noticed and would be interested in reading more about: the use of pop psychology to justify antisocial behavior.

Ten years ago, telling a distressed friend you don't feel like hearing about their problems would be incredibly rude. Now you can find NYT articles explaining how to couch the same sentiment in more acceptable terms like, "I don't have the bandwidth to perform that kind of emotional labor right now."

Same thing here. Telling a person you wronged to "get over it" is unacceptable. Telling them that you've been working on letting go of negative feelings about the past and being more mindful of the present, and you hope they can do the same? Well if anyone has a problem with that, you don't need that kind of energy in your life!

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#22
True Story.

I was newly moved to San Francisco and enrolled in a meditation course on literally loving-kindness (they were all mindfulness, this was a focused seminar).

When I was on my way in someone was having a mental health emergency right outside the front door and looked to clearly need care. Not knowing who to call for this since I didn't live in the city, and definitely not wanting to call cops, I went in and asked how to take actual action to help them out.

Instead of engaging with the real life actual emergency right in front of them where they could practice actually doing loving-kindness people wanted to discuss how they could "use their suffering as an object of meditation". Few even stood up to look. Averting their eyes from suffering was a very strange response.

It was unreal, I'm used to 90% of the people in a room during an emergency being stunned and uncertain (but attentive and worried), but there's always a few people who jump into action... there are times for action and times for contemplation and emergencies are not times to work on self-improvement.

It was eye opening -- thankfully one of them had a more normal response and had experience so we were able to connect them to the Episcopalian church next door which operated a shelter and had people there trained in how to help. It was disturbing though that the people in the class who spoke so eloquently about the importance of kindness and helping others, who were actively practicing mindfulness and learning about themselves, had such a strange response to an emergency 20 feet away.

One might almost describe it as faking being nice while changing little on the inside. Hippie and good person camouflage. A way to feel empathy so hard and so calmly that you don't feel any urgency to take actual action.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#23

Bobby Axelrod meditates secularly. He's a case study in what happens when power isn't ethically contextualized.

Are you saying there's no such thing as secular ethics?

No, I'm not saying that.

Breath mindfulness can sharpen your blade, but it won't tell you when or why to use your blade. I present Axelrod as a modern pop culture representation of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#24

You mean, by coming in tune with ones own body and mind people start to value themselves? Call me shocked! In all seriousness, people who know what they want tend to come across as selfish. I don’t know why people consider this bad. All airlines tell you to put on your masks, before helping others (in their emergency videos). The idea being, you must be capable in order to help others. I think this is something many…

I basically agree.

"Selfish" is a sloppy word that combines unlike things. Which means it's a toxic word.

People should be self-interested. We are organisms, after all. Like animals.

However, people should not be fixated on their own self-interest to the point that they neglect the bigger picture. If you neglect the bigger picture, you will not be successful at being self-interested.

For example, if you neglect your spouse's feelings, people will say you're being "selfish." But you aren't being self-interested, because you aren't promoting a good life for yourself.

For a good critique of altruism, which is really a separate topic, see Ayn Rand.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#26

You mean, by coming in tune with ones own body and mind people start to value themselves? Call me shocked! In all seriousness, people who know what they want tend to come across as selfish. I don’t know why people consider this bad. All airlines tell you to put on your masks, before helping others (in their emergency videos). The idea being, you must be capable in order to help others. I think this is something many…

I agree in principle, but anecdotally, I've seen lots wealthy folks in California get very into mindfulness which makes them feel great about themselves and feel more enlightened, but they do absolutely nothing to help others in any way. They only seem to become more self absorbed. Actually, it's not just wealthy people, I've seen it happen to poor folks who get into that too.

The headline gave me the same initial thought. I assume the experiment controlled for this, but so much of the mindfulness stuff is associated with self-optimizing hustle culture types that it seemed obvious to me it would correlate with higher-than-baseline selfish behavior.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#27
post #4

Mindfulness and compassion are often talked of as "two wings of a bird" by dharma teachers - mindfulness doesn't automatically translate to compassion. This sutta makes the same point: Maṇibhadda Sutta (SN 10:4) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans at the Jewel-stand Shrine, the haunt of the yakkha-spirit, Maṇibhadda [Auspicious Jewel]. Then Maṇibhadda the yakkha-spirit went to the Blessed…

My issue with this specific concept is that lots and lots of people are lazy and instead of doing compassionate things, they "feel compassion" as a generic emotion through the use of meditation.

I studied Buddhism quite a while pretty seriously, and I know that a lot of the meditations involve practicing loving yourself, and your friends, family, community, and that these feelings of love are a core thing to have in your mind as your practice. But you also have to actually do things to help, it's not enough to be nice about it.

The Buddhist temple I took some meditation classes at practiced feeling good things towards people. The Episcopalians next door ran a shelter. It's not hard to see which is further on the path towards enlightenment, and it's something that seems like it's very very often missing from Western teachings.

And completely absent from self-help books about the subject, which are 100% self-centered. Lesson 1 of compassion meditation should be volunteering at a food bank, not learning to forgive yourself for your flaws. These things should be learned together, not in isolation.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#28

True Story. I was newly moved to San Francisco and enrolled in a meditation course on literally loving-kindness (they were all mindfulness, this was a focused seminar). When I was on my way in someone was having a mental health emergency right outside the front door and looked to clearly need care. Not knowing who to call for this since I didn't live in the city, and definitely not wanting to call cops, I went in and…

I think in that case, being in San Francisco, if you stopped to engage every crazy person you saw, it's all you'd be doing with your life and would probably end of covered in shit or stabbed. Engaging crazies in the homeless capitol of the world is dangerous and likely pointless.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#29
post #4

Mindfulness and compassion are often talked of as "two wings of a bird" by dharma teachers - mindfulness doesn't automatically translate to compassion. This sutta makes the same point: Maṇibhadda Sutta (SN 10:4) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans at the Jewel-stand Shrine, the haunt of the yakkha-spirit, Maṇibhadda [Auspicious Jewel]. Then Maṇibhadda the yakkha-spirit went to the Blessed…

I think this is partially due to meditation being strongly associated in Western culture with New Thought [1] type movements. This diverse movement is the inspiration for most of the modern self-help ideology. As the quotes from William James in that article mention, the basis is "Mind-Cure", or the idea that thinking the right thoughts leads to physically healing the body.

Many people in Western culture get into those Eastern (Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist) practices for the purpose of self enhancement. People will meditate to control anxiety, to improve focus or to increase performance in some aspect of their lives. Very often the goal is one of personal improvement, or managing some kind of idealized growth/flourishing of the individual.

Most people here would probably deride the outlandish New Age ideas that grew out of the original Christian Science underpinnings of New Thought. But I find the basic premises of new thought to be the spiritual zeitgeist of the current age.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought

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