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Occupy George

occupygeorge.com

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Re: Occupy George

#21

Post by gaurav_v »

Shenglong wrote: post #18
gaurav_v wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the movement lacks a coherent message. That being said, one of the large issues in play is that people feel slighted by rising income inequality, which they perceive to have arisen out of a sort of government-industry feedback loop. Certainly this is what the printed dollar bills seem to be about. With regard to your comments about the utility of the protest: I don't think it's a waste in any regard. If…

Shouldn't you have a viable alternative solution in mind, when you express displeasure? I can understand that they're angry - I just can't understand how they want the government to fix it.

It would definitely be a lot easier (and seemingly, effective) if they all just said we want X, where X is some not necessarily even specific reform.

But maybe they just want to say 'we're angry about this rising income inequality and we want someone to do something about it.' I think that's a valid stance to have, and opinion to express. It then falls on the government to either:

1. Do something about income inequality. 2. Explain why they can't or shouldn't or won't.

Failing that either of these things occur, it may inspire someone to run for office with the platform of performing (1) or (2) above. Any of these outcomes seem like a 'successful' outcome of the protest.

Re: Occupy George

#22

Post by AndrewMoffat »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

i think the majority of people protesting see many interconnected problems that they know deep down there's no silver bullet for. they're not knowledgeable enough to know all the ins and outs of how they're being fucked, but they know what it feels like, and they know they don't like it. that's my take on it.

i think it's important to respect the passion of this movement, whether you agree with it or not, because it's real, because it comes from real causes, and because it won't go away until it's addressed

Re: Occupy George

#23

Post by potatolicious »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

The OWS movement is certainly pretty confused and vague when it comes to demands.

It would be a mistake, IMO, to use this to dismiss the reasons why people have chosen this time to protest.

If you look at the people and signs at a #Occupy protest, you will find a familiar theme: income disparity and unemployment. People are running scared in an economy where social mobility has been utterly destroyed, unemployment runs at an all-time high, and the gap between rich and poor continues to widen unabated.

Some people have chosen to blame corporations, some people pin it on banks, some are angry at the government. In the end though, the theme is the same. OWS protesters clearly have no clue how to fix it, but they are correct that something is fundamentally broken, and it would be a mistake to sweep this all away because the protesters can't put together a solid fix.

There are, of course, also the piggy-back causes. Environmentalists, educational reformers, health care reformers, and all manners of all side-issue protesters are out in force at the #occupy protests, and that really does hurt the main message.

Re: Occupy George

#24

Post by mgunes »

Shenglong wrote: post #18
gaurav_v wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the movement lacks a coherent message. That being said, one of the large issues in play is that people feel slighted by rising income inequality, which they perceive to have arisen out of a sort of government-industry feedback loop. Certainly this is what the printed dollar bills seem to be about. With regard to your comments about the utility of the protest: I don't think it's a waste in any regard. If…

Shouldn't you have a viable alternative solution in mind, when you express displeasure? I can understand that they're angry - I just can't understand how they want the government to fix it.

Shouldn't you have a viable alternative solution in mind, when you express displeasure?

Not necessarily; there are times when it's more fit to just walk out into the street, meet others who are as displeased as you are, and try to figure out what to do about it on the spot.

Re: Occupy George

#25

Post by ars »

acoster wrote: post #20

This is more an annoyance to the 99% that gets such bills (many places don't accept defaced banknotes).

The bill will not be accepted by anyone, so the only one who will see it is the person who printed it.

They could deposit it in a bank, but the bank will just send it to the Fed to be destroyed and replaced. (They have automated scanners that look for dirty, worn out, or defaced bills.)

So this is pointless if they want these notes to actually circulate - all they are doing is wasting money used to reprint the notes.

Re: Occupy George

#26

Post by jforman »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

One of the common outcomes I've heard called for is a "separation of corporation and state," in response to what people feel is an outsized voice in the democratic process for corporations at the expense of individual citizens. The backlash against TARP is a good example of fairly broad sentiment that federal policy favors financial institutions and high-value investors over "Main Street."

Lawrence Lessig has spoken rather extensively about campaign finance reform in this vein. His latest campaign is for the Fair Elections Now Act, which would encourage small donation-powered campaigns. He's also often argued for a constitutional convention that would address these concerns without needing to stay within the current legal boundaries...that seems to have fizzled a bit, though, I assume because it's so hard to pull off.

Re: Occupy George

#27

Post by hkmurakami »

This is alarming to me, because this particular act is appears to be pure sensationalism to me. It also takes the numbers grossly out of context.

When I saw the "Richest 400 vs Bottom 150,000,000" 50/50 split on one of the bills, my immediate thought was the following:

__Do these people consider how many jobs these top 400 people created over the last decades, and how much better off the world is because they existed?__

Yes, the US tax structure is flawed. Yes, there are some truly corrupt things going on. But depicting the situation as a "me vs you" situation rather than presenting the situation as a structural issue seems very alarming to me. I know I'm sounding like a lot of random Republican talking heads when criticizing the "class divide" issue of this movement, but why on earth would you classify a man like Bill Gates, who created tens of thousands of jobs for this economy and continues to do great deeds for humanity through his foundation, along with the truly corrupt?

Generalizations are dangerous, and I'm concerned.

Re: Occupy George

#28

Post by iskander »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

It's a lot of different people with different beliefs. The majority seem upset about some combination of:

1) growing income disparity (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_great_di...)

2) regulatory capture by financial institutions (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=892925)

3) the use of public funds to subsidize risky investment (http://www.thenation.com/article/153929/aig-bailout-scandal)

4) apparent double standards for the rich (you certainly face more jail time for robbing a bank than for ruining one)

I think that most people can agree that these are significant problems. It's actually amazing how little has changed since the 2007 mortgage crash.

Re: Occupy George

#29

Post by maximusprime »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

They're angry that success is rewarded with money. They'd rather failure also be rewarded with money.

Re: Occupy George

#30

Post by jamieb »

Shenglong wrote: post #11

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first people to want an economic bounce back.

Hence your failure to understand OWS. Wall Street's job is to make money. Period. If it happens that it is effective to make money by repeatedly crashing and booming the stock market, then that is exactly what they will do.

Well, it turns out that it is extremely effective to make money by repeatedly crashing and booming the stock market.

If it happens that it is legal to pay government officials to pass laws covering your losses, and if it can be done for a reasonable cost, then they will do that too.

Well, it turns out that yes, this can be done for a very reasonable cost!

I find it amazing that any person on HN - HACKER news - is unable to imagine of hundreds of different ways to hack the government-economic system for fun and profit, or once having imagined them, to imagine that people with the necessary money would then not do so.

Our economy has been rooted.

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