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Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

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Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#21

Post by notacoward »

otherotherchris wrote: post #7
jasfi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to know how the algorithms work, not the data itself.

Google doesn't know what the algorithm is anymore. The whole site is a black box.

Same at FB as far as I could tell while I was there. "The algorithm" is a misnomer, popularized by the press but really kind of silly. There are really thousands of pipelines and models developed by different people running on different slices of the data available. Some are reasonably transparent. Others, based on training, are utterly opaque to humans. Then the weights are all combined to yield what users see. And it all changes every day if not every hour. Even if it could all be explained in a useful way, that explanation would be out of date as soon as it was received.

I'm not saying that to defend anyone BTW. This complexity and opacity (which is transitive in the sense that a combined result including even one opaque part itself becomes opaque) is very much the problem. What I'm saying is that it's likely impossible for the companies to comply without making fundamental changes ... which might well be the intent, but if that's the case it should be more explicit.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#22

Post by tyingq »

ekianjo wrote: post #16
otherotherchris wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't know what the algorithm is anymore. The whole site is a black box.

> Google doesn't know what the algorithm is anymore You are an insider?

They haven't talked much detail since Matt Cutts left, but over time they did sort of outline the basics. That the core ranking is still some evolution of PageRank, weighting scoring of page attributes/metadata and flowing it down/through inbound links as well. But then altered via various waves of ML, like Vince (authority/brand power), Panda (inbound link quality), Penguin (content quality), and many others that targeted other attributes (page layout, ad placement, etc).

Even if some of that is off, the premise of a chain of some ML, and some not ML, processors means they probably can't really tell you exactly why anything ranks where it does.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#23

Post by ethbr0 »

jasfi wrote: post #5

If you read the article they're asking for more than explaining algorithms. Overall they want the the tech providers to be responsible. Explaining algorithms could, in theory, give away a competitive advantage. However fairness to users seems to be a priority in this decision.

>> "Large online platforms like Facebook will have to make the working of their recommender algorithms (e.g. used for sorting content on the News Feed or suggesting TV shows on Netflix) transparent to users. Users should also be offered a recommender system “not based on profiling.”"

Both of those seem like good ideas and progress. The non-profiled recommender system option especially!

It's also really bothered me that tech companies of sufficient size can discriminate against legally-protected classes because "algorithms are complicated" and government regulators haven't pushed.

I'm not a fan of regulating design or use, but I'm a huge proponent of requiring transparency and detail on demand.

We'll see how willing the EU is to levy fines for breaches.

It's no doubt a consequence of most huge tech companies being American, but it's been refreshing to see the repeated "We have a law; You clearly broke it; Here's your fine" follow-through thus far from EU enforcement.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#24

Post by NullPrefix »

simion314 wrote: post #13
otherotherchris wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Here's 100PiB of unlabeled neural net weights. Knock yourselves out."

>"Here's 100PiB of unlabeled neural net weights. Knock yourselves out." You need to give the user an explanation on why you blocked his account, but if Google is kind enough to add on top the secret neural network then some people would be happy to have a look at it and find even more garbage in it.

>Violation of guidelines and community standards.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#25

Post by tjbiddle »

> “Dark patterns” — confusing or deceptive user interfaces designed to steer users into making certain choices — will be prohibited. The EU says that, as a rule, cancelling subscriptions should be as easy as signing up for them.

This is an excellent addition.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#26

Post by thedeadfish »

otherotherchris wrote: post #4
MeteorMarc wrote: post #2

It will be fun to see Google's algorithm for ranking search results.

"Here's 100PiB of unlabeled neural net weights. Knock yourselves out."

Google manually adjusts its results for censorship reasons. This is probably why google has gotten so much worse, they don't want information to be freely accessible, they only want things they approve of to be seen.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#30

Post by eli »

tjbiddle wrote: post #25

> “Dark patterns” — confusing or deceptive user interfaces designed to steer users into making certain choices — will be prohibited. The EU says that, as a rule, cancelling subscriptions should be as easy as signing up for them. This is an excellent addition.

It’s a great idea but my understanding is that they have not yet defined the term. And that sounds very hard to define.
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