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How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

navalgazing.net

21–30 of 221 posts

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#21
There are some good points here mixed with some large assumptions.

The good points:

- Weapons fuzed for high-altitude air burst, which maximizes the damage area at the expense of not being able to kill hardened targets, are not going to produce dangerous fallout.

- The typical warhead now is significantly smaller than the multi-megaton ones that were typical during the era of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The large assumptions:

- Hardened, remote military targets will soak up a lot of warheads that could otherwise be targeted to wreck cities or general-purpose infrastructure.

- Civilization will only regress to an early-20th-century level after every oil refinery has been destroyed and the surrounding populations decimated.

That last pair of assumptions in particular raises my eyebrows:

"To put this into perspective, there are currently about 1,200 international airports and 732 oil refineries worldwide. Allocating a single warhead to each of these would leave only a thousand or so for every single other target on the planet."

and

"Most people even in major urban areas would survive the initial attack, along with a surprising amount of infrastructure. This isn’t to minimize the effects, as it would be a humanitarian catastrophe unprecedented in human history, as the global economy breaks down and regions are pushed back on their own resources. This could easily kill more people than the war itself, particularly in densely-populated areas, but I would expect things to stabilize at a technology level of maybe the late 19th/early 20th century and start back up."

It hardly matters if most people survived the initial attack if all the oil refineries are gone, along with all the infrastructure within a couple miles of each oil refinery. Early 20th century technology supported fewer than 2 billion people, most of those being people who already knew how to farm without artificial fertilizers. Today we are nearly 8 billion and a much smaller fraction have any experience farming. A nuclear war that globally knocks technology back to the early 20th century, even for "only" a decade or so, would lead to the death of most people now alive. At that point I'm skeptical that there would be enough survivors to sustain even as much specialization of labor as found in the early 20th century industrialized economies. Technology level and population could fall much further.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#22
Destroying the entirety of Manhattan beneath 80th st or so, along with a significant part of Manhattan-facing Brooklyn and Hoboken shorelines, with a single reasonably placed bomb is actually about as destructive as I imagined (following their 3 miles out rule).

But sure, let's lighten up about nukes!

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#23
post #4

The conclusion: >Nuclear war is bad, and we should be very careful not to have one, but it is not as bad as it is often made out to be. Some of this is because the threat has routinely been exaggerated by anti-nuclear groups, and some of it is the result of arms control efforts over the past half-century, which have significantly reduced the potential human toll of a nuclear war It’s odd to me that he blames exaggera…

Internal US government documents estimate something like a 90% population loss after a war that only targets our ICBM silos. (Ie not one missile hits a populated area.) The fallout destroys our food supplies and wipes out livestock, making farming impossible: most of the US population starves within a year. There is a reason the US government doesn’t spend a lot of effort preparing the population for a nuclear war, and it isn’t because of “anti-nuclear activism.”

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#24
If all of the nukes in the world went off at once, strategically spaced out to cause the most land coverage (I.E. some kind of Dr Strangelove situation), the world would look mostly the same. Green grass, blue oceans. It wouldn't be scorched earth. But, of course, those unlucky enough to live downwind, within 100 or so miles of a nuke, would get a healthy dose of radiation to their internal organs, as radioactive dust would be unavoidable. For decades, that fallout region would be uninhabitable, because radioactive isotopes would be incorporated into plants and animals.

So yeah, not the end of the world, or even civilization, but I wouldn't want to live in that world.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#25

This essay is leaning very hard on the fact that there are 5% the number of warheads today as there were at the peak of the cold war. Nuclear weapons are exactly as destructive as we think; the sum total of the nuclear arsenal is far smaller than when many of us formed our impressions.

And the average yield is just 300-800 kt. A lot less than the megaton size bombs of the cold war.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#26
post #9

How can we be sure of even a conservative estimate of current warheads. Why wouldn’t US/Russia have significantly more nuclear war heads than they are a) allowed and b) saying they have? Surely it’s in their interest to have more than the other.

What do you gain from having additional warheads? If you have enough to kill all enemy decision makers and effectively destroy the enemy nation then having more doesn't do anything for you. The big cost is that your enemy will discover you are secretly amassing nuclear weapons and will escalate against you. Incentives seem to align to keeping relatively low numbers of nukes to me.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#27

>not an existential threat to humanity ... [but] it would be a humanitarian catastrophe unprecedented in human history, as the global economy breaks down and regions are pushed back on their own resources. This could easily kill more people than the war itself, particularly in densely-populated areas, but I would expect things to stabilize at a technology level of maybe the late 19th/early 20th century and start back…

You should try this https://www.radzone.org/nukemap.php . Move the map on your location and see the impact radius.

I've played with the nuke map occasionally for years, though I've never taken it too seriously in terms of estimating realistic damage. I'm not sure what targets would be hit, and by which bombs, and even then, the circles don't provide a holistic, long-term description of damage. But it is a lot of fun.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#28

>not an existential threat to humanity ... [but] it would be a humanitarian catastrophe unprecedented in human history, as the global economy breaks down and regions are pushed back on their own resources. This could easily kill more people than the war itself, particularly in densely-populated areas, but I would expect things to stabilize at a technology level of maybe the late 19th/early 20th century and start back…

> So, it's exactly as destructive as I think.

My thoughts exactly. Setting the world back 100+ years is a disaster of gigantic proportions.

I also find it odd that the author didn't even attempt to provide an estimate of the possible victim count. I'm basically sure it would at least be in the tens, perhaps hundreds of millions.

This is to say nothing about a possible future arms race that would increase the numbers of warheads substantially.

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#29
post #9

How can we be sure of even a conservative estimate of current warheads. Why wouldn’t US/Russia have significantly more nuclear war heads than they are a) allowed and b) saying they have? Surely it’s in their interest to have more than the other.

The US frequently inspects Russian nuclear facilities and vice versa per the New START Treaty.

Playing dumb here but there’re not going to invite each other to the secret nuclear warhead stash are they?

Re: How destructive are nuclear weapons really?

#30
> For instance, priority targets in New York City are likely to include Bayonne/Port Elizabeth and Red Hook in Brooklyn instead of Manhattan, as Moscow cares more about New York as a place where armies can sail for Europe than as a place where investment bankers live.

This person is delusional.

The financial hub of the world is definitely a much higher value target than another port in an armageddon type scenario.

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