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Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

politico.eu

21–30 of 197 posts

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#21
> Chermaine Leysner’s life changed in 2012, when she received a letter from the Dutch tax authority demanding she pay back her child care allowance going back to 2008. Leysner, then a student studying social work, had three children under the age of 6. The tax bill was over €100,000.

A student can get €100,000 for child care?

That is amazing.

For me, that is the most surprising thing in the entire article.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, the irony amidst all this is that the Netherlands is the largest tax haven for companies globally. Literally every brand/company you can think of is legally headquartered in NL for tax purposes. Eg: FAANG, Disney, IKEA, Uber, Mars Chocolate, etc etc

Are you sure you’re not mixing up the Netherlands with Ireland?

No, I’m not. Most of these companies also have incorporated in Ireland alongside the Netherlands to exploit this loophole:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich

> Ireland has the BEPS tools to enable US IP-heavy multinationals to reroute global profits into Ireland, tax-free. The Netherlands then enables these Irish profits to get to a classical tax haven (e.g. the Cayman Islands or Jersey) without incurring EU withholding tax.

I empathise with your the confusion - corruption has enabled these companies to construct confusing and elaborate ways of avoiding their fair share of taxes.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#24
post #2

This scandal and the issues at the dutch tax office runs much deeper than just this one set of issues, they also maintained illegal lists of 'potential fraudulent people' on which 100's of thousands of people that had done nothing wrong, such as having the 'wrong' surname. It's rotten to the core and to date there have been zero consequences for the perps and the damage continues to pile up. Our government has fallen…

On the other hand one of the main triggers for this whole operation was the mass fraud by people from Bulgaria who netted a lot of benefits by gaming the system. They traveled to the Netherlands, applied for benefits and then went back to Bulgaria and used Dutch bank accounts and debit cards to get the cash. The tax office never wanted that to happen again and started this program to find fraudsters but ended up clas…

This has been trotted out many times before in defense of the tax office's behavior but it doesn't hold water: far more people were affected than Bulgarian fraudsters and besides that compared to the fraud committed by the well-off portion of NL the fraud committed by the poorer part is negligible. But guess who is better at defending themselves against unfair behavior by the authorities.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#25
post #2

This scandal and the issues at the dutch tax office runs much deeper than just this one set of issues, they also maintained illegal lists of 'potential fraudulent people' on which 100's of thousands of people that had done nothing wrong, such as having the 'wrong' surname. It's rotten to the core and to date there have been zero consequences for the perps and the damage continues to pile up. Our government has fallen…

It seems like bodies of government without accountability have something in common: corruption.

This was not a case of corruption. Incompetence, discrimination, and lack of accountability, but not corruption. Most civil servants involved believed they were doing the right thing (despite ruining many lives in reality), and none profited personally, provided favours, or pocketed money.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#26
post #17
post #2

This scandal and the issues at the dutch tax office runs much deeper than just this one set of issues, they also maintained illegal lists of 'potential fraudulent people' on which 100's of thousands of people that had done nothing wrong, such as having the 'wrong' surname. It's rotten to the core and to date there have been zero consequences for the perps and the damage continues to pile up. Our government has fallen…

It's shocking to read, and reminds me of the British Post Office scandal. A €3.7 million + €2.75 million fines are a slap-on-the wrist for what happened. Even €30,000/case seems a pittance compared to its effects on people. It mentions there were "secret blacklists of people for two decades" and that "authorities [were] hiding information or misleading the parliament about the facts". I don't see how regulating algor…

Yes, and besides it is the one government institution fining another, so there is really no consequence for any of this.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#28

> Chermaine Leysner’s life changed in 2012, when she received a letter from the Dutch tax authority demanding she pay back her child care allowance going back to 2008. Leysner, then a student studying social work, had three children under the age of 6. The tax bill was over €100,000. A student can get €100,000 for child care? That is amazing. For me, that is the most surprising thing in the entire article.

That may well have been including punitive components. They're really good at that.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#29
In the documentary Alone Against the State, five mothers who became victims of the Dutch childcare benefits scandal share the chilling stories of how their lives and that of their children were destroyed by a state system deprived of humanity.

It is a Dutch documentary, unfortunately without English subtitles:

https://www.2doc.nl/documentaires/series/2doc/2021/alleen-te...

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#30

> Authorities penalized families over a mere suspicion of fraud based on the system’s risk indicators This is the real story here. The algorithm is incidental.

Not sure about that in the real world. The temptation of "algorithms" is in reducing human workload which, realistically, means saving on salary costs by having fewer humans in the loop. The attraction of cost savings – and the externalization of repercussions – biases decisionmakers into believing that algorithms are a great solution. Yes, the real problem is abuse of algorithmic decisionmaking, and a lack of oversight, but in the real world you can't separate a technology from the people who use it.
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