Popper’s criticism is, iirc, drawn mainly from Plato’s Republic. But Popper somehow managed to read a deeply ironic and subtle text as a recipe for tyranny. Eg there are numerous points where Socrates makes obviously bad arguments which others call out, and Socrates just hand waves them away. Numerous critics and philosophers have made this observation, the most ready to hand example I can find is here: https://www.t…
Popper’s Plato
21–30 of 35 posts
Re: Popper’s Plato
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shame he didn't go all the way and realise it was about giving the illusion of choice, via the use of a false dialectic.
What do you know about Popper and the environment he had been in when he wrote this idea? Let's not forget: Popper wrote this in 1945 directly after the Nazis lost the war – he, like many post-war German thinkers spent a lot of energy on pondering how a new democracy must be designed in order to never allow this quick takeover of democracy never again. I am currently living in Germany and I grew up in Austria where P…
I am also concerned about the state of democracy in the US, but it doesn't strike me as being similar to what happened to Weimar. Rather, I see it as a very long, slow process of combining some basic inequities in the political system with deliberate stoking of grudges among the people those inequities benefit. It took decades to get where we are.
I don't believe anything can be done about it -- it's too late, and those inequities have now hardened into permanent, overwhelming thumbs on the scale. But I'd be curious to know what lessons have been learned elsewhere.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#23There are likely equivalently devastating criticisms of Popper, Marx, and others that are as strong as his of Plato as well, but I think their entire goal was to create an intellectual solvent to dissolve the bonds of reason, thinking, and belief, and not to produce positive models using ideals and principle (like, say, Aristotle). (Article states Popper's intent was to unmoor society from it's great man thinkers) It's just a system for producing neutralizing criticisms, which are sufficient for his purposes, so criticisms of those ideas are why they are met with personal and political attacks today, because the theories aren't designed to withstand anything, but only to dissolve others.
The basic error is that all criticisms based on materialism and power are necessarily predicated on an axiom that the good in the world is both finite and zero-sum. Personally, I reject most marxist and progressive critiques and their descendents because of this basic fallacy. Whereas the only zero-sum thing is stuff you have that they're trying to talk and bully you out of instead of discovering or making their own. The redemption they offer in return is subjugation. It's not a philosophy, it's a fancy bandits hustle.
As I remember just from the few readings I did, Plato's ideas were about the city state, which means their scale is limited and you can leave to find or found another one, and not governing the layered federations of city/state/nations we typically advocate democratic rule for. Scaling a republic out of the city state model may have been a uniquely American innovation, aided by adapting the division of powers I think from the federated model of the Iroqois and other native nations. I'd wonder if Popper had used Plato's city state model as more a straw man and a vehicle for these more generally destabilizing criticisms than as a basis for positive alternative.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you know about Popper and the environment he had been in when he wrote this idea? Let's not forget: Popper wrote this in 1945 directly after the Nazis lost the war – he, like many post-war German thinkers spent a lot of energy on pondering how a new democracy must be designed in order to never allow this quick takeover of democracy never again. I am currently living in Germany and I grew up in Austria where P…
Can you elaborate on what Germany has done to make its democracy more resilient? I am also concerned about the state of democracy in the US, but it doesn't strike me as being similar to what happened to Weimar. Rather, I see it as a very long, slow process of combining some basic inequities in the political system with deliberate stoking of grudges among the people those inequities benefit. It took decades to get whe…
I think the problem in the US is that none of the actors that could implement any needed systemic change has the incentives to do so...
Re: Popper’s Plato
#251where Plato's Socrates takes on the task of refuting himself- a common rhethoric ploy trying limit the power of interpretation to oneself
Further, Popper made it abundantly clear that whosoever thought that Popper's critique of Plato referred only to the Politeia had not read Popper at all. So far so bad. Philosophers as well as there reception can be a sobering experience.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate on what Germany has done to make its democracy more resilient? I am also concerned about the state of democracy in the US, but it doesn't strike me as being similar to what happened to Weimar. Rather, I see it as a very long, slow process of combining some basic inequities in the political system with deliberate stoking of grudges among the people those inequities benefit. It took decades to get whe…
Instead of trying to explain it myself, I give you a hint where to start reading. In German there is the idea of "wehrhafte Demokratie" which translates to "defensive democracy". The Wikipedia article on that topic might give you some idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy I think the problem in the US is that none of the actors that could implement any needed systemic change has the incentives to do…
There seems to be an unavoidable paradox here, in that anti-democratic measures can be presented as being in accordance with defensive democracy: take the issue of election fraud, for example...
Re: Popper’s Plato
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate on what Germany has done to make its democracy more resilient? I am also concerned about the state of democracy in the US, but it doesn't strike me as being similar to what happened to Weimar. Rather, I see it as a very long, slow process of combining some basic inequities in the political system with deliberate stoking of grudges among the people those inequities benefit. It took decades to get whe…
Instead of trying to explain it myself, I give you a hint where to start reading. In German there is the idea of "wehrhafte Demokratie" which translates to "defensive democracy". The Wikipedia article on that topic might give you some idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy I think the problem in the US is that none of the actors that could implement any needed systemic change has the incentives to do…
I'm put in mind of community organizations, which have the same risks. I've seen several organizations do abrupt turns where one group gains power and then cements it by rule changes. Organizations are different in that you can't just opt out of a country, but it's interesting to see the ways organizations might look to this to protect themselves.
I believe one of the most important things Germany has is its assertion that "Human dignity shall be inviolable". The US does not have that. As written it's too vague to apply directly, but it does imply an ethos of protecting people that isn't usually found in the US Constitution. We resist protections, especially when they interfere with somebody's economic freedom or their freedom to persecute others when not expressly forbidden.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#28That's an argument from an era when people seriously discussed how to make this civilization thing work.
What I like about Popper is the ingenious inversion of principles: He realized that democracy is not about being able to get those you like into power — democracy is about being able to remove those you don't like from power. Take away the ability of the public to rid yourself of certain politicians by voting them out, and you take away democracy, even if you maintain the illusion of choice.
That's an old observation. It goes back to George Washington at the end of his term as President, shaking hands with his successor and walking away. That surprised many Europeans.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#29And yet, clearly Plato was correct.
Qualification needed. I'm sure you don't intend this but the subtext might appear to be 'you're all a bit dumb if you can't see that Plate was very obviously correct though I'm not going to give you a reason ... because it's clearly correct'.
Re: Popper’s Plato
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shame he didn't go all the way and realise it was about giving the illusion of choice, via the use of a false dialectic.
What do you know about Popper and the environment he had been in when he wrote this idea? Let's not forget: Popper wrote this in 1945 directly after the Nazis lost the war – he, like many post-war German thinkers spent a lot of energy on pondering how a new democracy must be designed in order to never allow this quick takeover of democracy never again. I am currently living in Germany and I grew up in Austria where P…
I agree, but one way in which Germany's democracy differs from America's (and Britain's) is its use of proportional representation (whereas both the US and the UK make extensive use of the decidedly non-proportional First Past the Post). I consider this among the strengths of German democracy, but Popper didn't:
> proportional representation confers, even if only indirectly, a constitutional status on political parties which they would otherwise not attain. For I can no longer choose a person whom I trust to represent me: I can choose only a party. https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/01/31/fr...
However, Popper use the term "proportional representation" to apply only to closed list proportional representation. I wonder whether even Popper's assessment of that form of proportional representation is still plausible, in light of the increasingly obvious weakness of democracies that use "majoritarian" voting systems compared to democracies using proportional representation (closed list or not).
I don't suppose Germany's relatively healthy democracy is solely due to its use of proportional representation, but it does share many other constitutional virtues (such as federalism, republicanism, bicameralism and a codified constitution) with the United States, so those can't account for differences between the two countries.