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Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

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Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean Ukraine was a part of Rus and Russian empires going back 1000 years. It goes way beyond the Soviet Union...

Yes there are ethnic ties between them. That doesn't mean they are identical, or that one should rule the other. Should Scotland rule Ireland (or vice versa) because they are both Gaelic peoples that were part of the British Empire?

I said nothing about 'should'.

Simply history. Ukraine was never a 'country' until briefly in the 20's then the 90's.

Ukrainians have been Rus, or Russians, or Ruthenians, etc... for most of their history. They were once a single people. That's just a fact.

The differences in identity are the fact that western Ukraine has at times belonged to Austria-Hungary or Poland. Or the fact the Cossacks carved out small states amidst foreign rule. And likewise Novgorod and Moscow had small states during Muslim domination which also contributed to a unique Russian identity.

It's not as simple as 'Ukraine was part of USSR for a generation.

My ancestors were Ukrainian, spoke Ukrainian, identified as Ukrainian but were from Austria-Hungary and officially were called 'Ruthenians'.

The same thing that separates Russia and Ukraine is what separates the Czech Republic and Slovakia. One people (ish), just different historical circumstances at times creating different identities and eventually states.

Ukraine should be its own country today. But not because of made up history, simply because today they want to.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#22

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

I'm sorry but you can't tell me you weren't aware of wars in Afganistan or Chechnya?

And I'm pretty sure Lomonosov and Dostoyevsky don't care about what passport if any you have, please renounce it already and stop this soppy drivel.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#23

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

Nothing wrong with being proud of your nation's accomplishments, and being appalled at its violence.

We have been shown the strength of our culture, and the fragility of our institutions, in this era of super-power authoritarianism.

I don't know what the world will be like in ten years. Post-Trump, post-Putin, and hopefully still able to support human life.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#24
post #7

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

> a nation of defenders Nonsense. Russian history is full of invasions. That is how empires are created, and that is their mode of existence.

I think the key part is the first part of the sentence you clipped: “the load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity”. Self-image is not an academic historical treatise and most nationalities have parts they like to emphasize more than others — for example, as Americans we love to talk about democracy and freedom a lot more than slavery / Jim Crow, or whether all of our military endeavors hold up as well as WWII.

I don’t know how it’s taught in Russia but for what it’s worth, the major points of Russian history I learned prior to the 20th century was basically the Mongols and Napoleon invading and the brutal conditions of serfdom. Clearly there were other wars but even a Cold War enemy’s educational curriculum tended to emphasize the aspects mentioned prior to around 1950 so I’d have no trouble believing this is how Russians want to see their history.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#25
This is very cringe. To even imagine that the reason a country got invaded, knowing full well the repercussions that will follow, was because jealous old Putin got all shaky with impotent rage that his beautiful girlfriend called Ukraine with a blue dress and flaxen hair has left him.

The first reason Russia invaded Ukraine is because Ukraine joining NATO(in before "but Ukraine could never have joined NATO!!" - yes it would have and NATO was pursuing that, look it up) would be catastrophical for Russia's defense. At that point the only option for defense from any invasion would have been nuclear armageddon - if say in 20 years NATO comes back and decides to annex Crimea would it be an easy choice for whoever's responsible to press the big red button or would it be nicer to defend it through conventional means?

Secondly, Ukraine has found natural oil/gas reserves that would have competed with Russian exports.

Thirdly, Ukraine has turned off water supply going from Dniepr river to Crimea making it very difficult for Russia to supply water to that area.

I'm not saying that this justifies the invasion - war is a terrible thing and people on both sides are suffering, but would we also be surprised if USA invaded Mexico or Canada to stop it getting aligned with China? I wouldn't.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#26

This is very cringe. To even imagine that the reason a country got invaded, knowing full well the repercussions that will follow, was because jealous old Putin got all shaky with impotent rage that his beautiful girlfriend called Ukraine with a blue dress and flaxen hair has left him. The first reason Russia invaded Ukraine is because Ukraine joining NATO(in before "but Ukraine could never have joined NATO!!" - yes i…

it's not cringe to posit (yes, even in flowery language) that world leaders sometimes make decisions that don't resolve to pure dollars and cents. That mythos actually drives the hearts and minds of people all around the world including in Moscow.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#27

This is very cringe. To even imagine that the reason a country got invaded, knowing full well the repercussions that will follow, was because jealous old Putin got all shaky with impotent rage that his beautiful girlfriend called Ukraine with a blue dress and flaxen hair has left him. The first reason Russia invaded Ukraine is because Ukraine joining NATO(in before "but Ukraine could never have joined NATO!!" - yes i…

it's not cringe to posit (yes, even in flowery language) that world leaders sometimes make decisions that don't resolve to pure dollars and cents. That mythos actually drives the hearts and minds of people all around the world including in Moscow.

That's partially true for propaganda used to drive population's support, politicians of that caliber don't get to their positions by being hopeless romantics and idealists.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#28

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

Your story remind me very much of a song in the musical chess where the Russian character tells the audience how while madness may take control of a nations leaders, the hearth of a nation is its people regardless if they stay within the borders.

And you ask me why I love her

Through wars, death and despair

She is the constant, we who don't care

And you wonder will I leave her, but how?

I cross over borders but I'm still there now

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#29

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

> the Russian contribution to human civilization > By renouncing my nationality I would also renounce Lomonosov, Dostoyevsky, etc. No you wouldn't. Culture transcends flags and borders, but you're putting the nation ahead of it. You can still appreciate your Russian culture without having to buy wholesale the whole Russian (or any other) nationality. The Russian people have created beautiful things like everybody els…

Yes, but patriotism/nationalism are also the condition of leaving the tribal stage, being strong enough to not get invaded in the first place. And plenty of nations do not go around invading others.

It's imperialism that you should be worried about : when indeed you get the idea that you're better than others, give up on the idea of nation, and try to have a multicultural country, ruling different ethnicities using separate laws - and some of them always end up more equal than others.

Re: Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

#30

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing m…

That identity has already been built on a lie. Russia invaded Poland on September 17th 1939 after secret deal with Germany to split Polish territory they agreed on before the war even started.

Then Russians cried foul when the bigger bully betrayed them. Unfortunately allies could not let Nazis overrun Soviets because with access to oil fields Nazis could make Europe their fortress.

And so Soviet crimes were overlooked in the name of greater good.

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