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The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

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Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#21

Post by kitsune_ »

jerf wrote: post #6

"So why does the term “elite” become attached to certain languages over others?" Because the causality flows the other way. At any given point in time, there are certain languages that the elite programmers tend to flock to, because they spend more time looking out for new, good things that the average person (part of what got them to "elite" in the first place), and therefore finding someone who knows that language…

It's not just that elites use other tools and techniques because they are intellectually more curious, it's also a method to establish identity and separate themselves from "the peons".

The irony, in my opinion, comes from the fact that there is no official membership mechanism when it comes to belonging to an elite. People that wield power withing a community because of their above average skill set have mannerisms, and often, as said above, agree, sometimes silently, on a certain code of conduct or modus operandi. People who want to belong to the elite start to emulate these mannerisms and identity forming mechanisms, reinforcing them over time.

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#22

Post by shin_lao »

jerf wrote: post #6

"So why does the term “elite” become attached to certain languages over others?" Because the causality flows the other way. At any given point in time, there are certain languages that the elite programmers tend to flock to, because they spend more time looking out for new, good things that the average person (part of what got them to "elite" in the first place), and therefore finding someone who knows that language…

because they spend more time looking out for new, good things that the average person

Yet I think the best programmers I know use languages that are 20 to 30 years old as their main weapon of choice (C/C++ for example).

I'd also care to say that once you reach a certain skill level, you see beyond the language and don't find yourself looking for the latest shining new stuff.

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#23

Post by barrkel »

vessenes wrote: post #5

This sort of has a 'straw-man' feel to me. I've never heard the "Elite Programming Language" term before I saw it deconstructed in this essay. Most discussion around programming languages I see these days is centered around assessment of developer skills. This is understandable -- we're going through a period of massive technical talent shortage. Almost all tips we read through places like HN, including PG's notes, r…

Never heard of the concept, or never heard of that specific phrasing? Because I've heard of the concept repeatedly for years.

http://paulgraham.com/pypar.html

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#24

Post by hammerdr »

hokua wrote: post #17
ericd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

J2EE (what most people are referring to when they talk about Java sucking) is a really awful, verbose thing to write programs in, and I had those feelings well before I started reading articles about it. It's not a shallow criticism. The JVM, on the other hand, is great, and lots of great tech has come out of it. I haven't seen too many people disparaging the JVM. There is also quite a lot of useful, stable library c…

j2EE != Java. J2EE is a framework. More accurate to compare J2EE and Rails. Or compare Swing to Qt. You can program in Java without J2EE and Swing (which suck). The criticism is against Java. You are adding your own qualification.

Java, the Programming Language, not the Development Environment, is what I think he was talking about. The JVM is awesome and will be one of the platforms that defines the next generation of languages (e.g. Clojure, Scala).

Java the language is painful after writing in Lisp, Clojure, Ruby, et al.

Edit: C# is also widely regarded as "superior" to Java.

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#25

Post by [deleted] »

hammerdr wrote: post #24
hokua wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

j2EE != Java. J2EE is a framework. More accurate to compare J2EE and Rails. Or compare Swing to Qt. You can program in Java without J2EE and Swing (which suck). The criticism is against Java. You are adding your own qualification.

Java, the Programming Language, not the Development Environment, is what I think he was talking about. The JVM is awesome and will be one of the platforms that defines the next generation of languages (e.g. Clojure, Scala). Java the language is painful after writing in Lisp, Clojure, Ruby, et al. Edit: C# is also widely regarded as "superior" to Java.

[deleted]

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#26

Post by nightski »

shin_lao wrote: post #22
jerf wrote: post #6

"So why does the term “elite” become attached to certain languages over others?" Because the causality flows the other way. At any given point in time, there are certain languages that the elite programmers tend to flock to, because they spend more time looking out for new, good things that the average person (part of what got them to "elite" in the first place), and therefore finding someone who knows that language…

because they spend more time looking out for new, good things that the average person Yet I think the best programmers I know use languages that are 20 to 30 years old as their main weapon of choice (C/C++ for example). I'd also care to say that once you reach a certain skill level, you see beyond the language and don't find yourself looking for the latest shining new stuff.

There is a huge difference between being pragmatic and beaten into submission by industry, and seeing no value in language innovation. I highly doubt the latter is the case for most of these veterans you speak of.

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#27

Post by nandemo »

barrkel wrote: post #23
vessenes wrote: post #5

This sort of has a 'straw-man' feel to me. I've never heard the "Elite Programming Language" term before I saw it deconstructed in this essay. Most discussion around programming languages I see these days is centered around assessment of developer skills. This is understandable -- we're going through a period of massive technical talent shortage. Almost all tips we read through places like HN, including PG's notes, r…

Never heard of the concept, or never heard of that specific phrasing? Because I've heard of the concept repeatedly for years. http://paulgraham.com/pypar.html

I agree with vessenes, the article is vaguely strawman-ish.

What pg says in Python Paradox is not "all Python programmers are elite hackers" but rather that -- when he wrote the article -- the percentage of good hackers in the Pythonista population was higher than in the Java-programmer population.

Again, the point is not that learning Python automatically makes you a better programmer. It's that people who are great programmers or are interested in being better programmers are more likely to go and learn a non-mainstream language.

Re: The Elite Programming Language Fallacy

#28

Post by nightski »

steve8918 wrote: post #16
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #7

I blame the Internet. No, seriously. Sites like HN and Reddit tend to have a vocal crowd who decide that certain languages and tools are the domain of the elite. This groupthink is religiously defended through self-righteous blog posts ("I switched from Java to C and became a better person!!!") and comment threads. Inevitably, posters go looking for something that the True Language is known to do well, and then overg…

I have to agree. The Internet somehow does create these weird pissing contests where people seem to want to show that they are cool and everyone else sucks. For example, in an internal mailing list where I work, there is currently a thread between two idiots over whether iPhone or Android is superior. What a completely ridiculous waste of time! The mature "elite" programmer knows that solving problems is more importa…

I don't like flame fests any more than you do, but honestly is making money always the most important factor? Especially in our profession there are far more rewarding goals than money.
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