Live data from Hacker News

Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

microcontrollertips.com

21–30 of 133 posts

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#21

I have dealt with the tin whisker problem in the context of aerospace applications (both space-borne and terrestrial flight), including extensive consulting with subject matter experts from NASA. The bottom line is quite simple: Tin whisker growth onset is a stochastic process. We cannot predict when it will start and we cannot prevent it. Once they start growing it is almost impossible to contain them. They will pok…

Are there any easy ways to clean up a PCB that's developed whiskers? And once a whisker erupts on a given PCB, does that generally indicate that others are likely to form on that board in short order?

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#22

> No one has been able to eliminate whiskering, as the phenomenon is not yet fully understood. It's the kind of stuff we should be embarrassed not to understand. I get that understanding living things can be tricky due to complexity and issues with controlling conditions, but a lump of metal? Whatever we find out will at least save us money in damaged devices, and hopefully drive some progress in metallurgy as well.…

[deleted]

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#23
post #4

Use lead solder, like NASA does: easier to use, and no whisker issues. Just wash your hands afterwards

On the contrary, I am not NASA. I'm not even a consumer electronics company. I'm a hobbyist at home, soldering things at my desk or table. Lead-free is the least of my problems when building something and I don't believe "just wash your hands" is sufficient for cleaning my workspace (or kitchen table?) of possible lead contamination.

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#24

I have dealt with the tin whisker problem in the context of aerospace applications (both space-borne and terrestrial flight), including extensive consulting with subject matter experts from NASA. The bottom line is quite simple: Tin whisker growth onset is a stochastic process. We cannot predict when it will start and we cannot prevent it. Once they start growing it is almost impossible to contain them. They will pok…

Are there any easy ways to clean up a PCB that's developed whiskers? And once a whisker erupts on a given PCB, does that generally indicate that others are likely to form on that board in short order?

All else being equal, once growth starts it is likely to start everywhere on that board. This is a probabilistic assumption based on the likelihood of all of the solder on that board being from the same batch and having been applied with the same process parameters. The same cannot be said of the device leads, where each manufacturer and batch could very well be different.

It's quite a nightmare, particularly when you are trying to figure out if this stuff can kill people you want to send into space. The only real mitigation is lead-based solder and coatings on components.

Cleaning? That can be both dangerous and highly ineffective. The whiskers are very strong due to their molecular scale. Mechanical brushing might fracture longer whiskers. Then you have the problem of ensuring that they don't go under devices or in-between contacts. The process would likely have to be repeated many times and include both manual and automated optical inspection as well as x-ray imaging (which might not be able to detect fine whiskers). And then there's the reality that you probably don't want to inhale these things at all.

So, off to the landfill we go. It is likely better to build a new board than to try to clean one. I can't even begin to compute the delta in carbon footprint between making a board with lead-based solder that will last decades and the "clean/green" RoHS board that is sure to end-up in a landfill (cleaning/fixing it is bound to have a massively larger carbon footprint that making a new board).

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#25

I have dealt with the tin whisker problem in the context of aerospace applications (both space-borne and terrestrial flight), including extensive consulting with subject matter experts from NASA. The bottom line is quite simple: Tin whisker growth onset is a stochastic process. We cannot predict when it will start and we cannot prevent it. Once they start growing it is almost impossible to contain them. They will pok…

The Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive (RoHS) is not about preventing garbage in landfills, and frankly it's been 18 years and the sky is not falling.

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#26

> No one has been able to eliminate whiskering, as the phenomenon is not yet fully understood. It's the kind of stuff we should be embarrassed not to understand. I get that understanding living things can be tricky due to complexity and issues with controlling conditions, but a lump of metal? Whatever we find out will at least save us money in damaged devices, and hopefully drive some progress in metallurgy as well.…

> It's the kind of stuff we should be embarrassed not to understand. We understand it. Onset is stochastic. Mitigation is impossible given current regulations in consumer-land. Read my longer comment for further details. EDIT: What I mean by "we understand it" is that we know that lead-free solder chemistry leads to tin whisker growth. When I was taking a deep dive into this many years back, the researchers I was wor…

That sounds like not understanding it.

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the kind of stuff we should be embarrassed not to understand. We understand it. Onset is stochastic. Mitigation is impossible given current regulations in consumer-land. Read my longer comment for further details. EDIT: What I mean by "we understand it" is that we know that lead-free solder chemistry leads to tin whisker growth. When I was taking a deep dive into this many years back, the researchers I was wor…

That sounds like not understanding it.

Not quite. We understand that we can't build an anti-gravity device and don't even know how to go about thinking of one. Understanding that something is impossible (or likely impossible) is understanding. We might not like the answers (I sure didn't at the time) yet they are a based on knowledge and decades of research by some of the smartest scientists I have ever met.

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#29

> No one has been able to eliminate whiskering, as the phenomenon is not yet fully understood. It's the kind of stuff we should be embarrassed not to understand. I get that understanding living things can be tricky due to complexity and issues with controlling conditions, but a lump of metal? Whatever we find out will at least save us money in damaged devices, and hopefully drive some progress in metallurgy as well.…

[deleted]

Re: Tin whiskers: What happens when they spontaneously erupt? (2018)

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That by itself does not imply fumes cannot form at lower temperatures.

Great. If we follow this line, standing next to a roll of solder is just as dangerous. No need to fire up the iron. If lead was so easily dissolved into air, wouldn't we have had massive issues in electronics factories? I don't recall ever reading such a thing ( as opposed to painters madness for example ). Not a native speaker, probably doesn't translate too well.

Mad Hatter[0] is a good example in English.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erethism

Post reply on HN