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Why are there so many bad bosses?

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Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#21
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolute bullshit. After being an IC, a tech lead and an engineering manager I can tell you that the one thing is engineers mainly want to be left alone to do their jobs. The job as manager is to stop the pressure from everyone in the company demanding they do everything more quickly to meet some arbitrary bullshit deadline. This attitude infuriates me. Its weak managers who dont know what they are doing that…

> engineers mainly want to be left alone to do their jobs Sounds like a happy path but what happens when things go wrong? If all engineers needed to do their jobs was for someone to leave them alone and let them do what they wanted there wouldn't really be a need for managers.

That is precisely the point. Leave them alone to do their job but with an eye on the progress/results and if they seem to be straying, nudge them back onto the path. Do not micromanage; any exceptions have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Delegate responsibility, Clarify deliverables, Request regular progress reports but at the same time give them the Freedom and Autonomy to do their job their own way.

Relevant Reading:

1) A radical article from HBR, First, Let’s Fire All the Managers : https://hbr.org/2011/12/first-lets-fire-all-the-managers

2) Speech by Dave Packard to HP Managers (1960) - https://gizmodo.com/the-hp-way-how-bill-hewlett-and-i-built-... (this is one of my favourites)

3) Also see the book Why we do what we do: Understanding Self-motivation by Edward Deci for insights.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#22
post #12

The idea of management being the only road for advancement has always seemed extremely self-destructive to me. I recently quit my job as a senior developer at a company because they wouldn't even pay me one of the upper pay scales for developers, because a requirement for that was that I'd have to take some sort of organisational responsibility outside my team. The fact that I did a lot of organisation and steering i…

I'm in a similar situation and it's really frustrating. As an individual contributor, the more senior and skilled that I become, the less of a chance I have to actually use my expertise and skills to lead projects or deliver features that make an impact and create value. I'm constantly steered towards absolute time-wasting activities. Recently my company has become convinced Kafka is going to solve all our problems, and executives have OKR's related to the number of queues teams implement and it's impossible to launch anything now without a queue. My boss is making me join this cross-team initiative to gratuitously add queues to services that receive a dozen requests per minute at PEAK throughput. Also, there's no functional benefit to adding queues to these services, if anything it only makes them more difficult to administer.

Sorry, I just needed to vent.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#23
Managers of technical teams should be required to demonstrate a good understanding of what the team does and a good understanding of how similar teams are managed as a matter of best practice. You can't do it your own way or according to your fragile personality.

Above all else, they must be nice and demonstrate a large capacity for empathy.

At the end of the day, their job is to get their team to efficiently get work done. Regardless of method used, fear,micromanagement and threats as a proverbial stick with your salary serving as the carrot, that never works.

Anyone can manage, but a good manager must be a leader. They must have the capacity to inspire their workers to want to excel in their work. For certain team types (like retail, manual labor, call centers,etc...) you can get away with a nasty task master yelling "the beatings will continue until morale improves" because your workers perform repetitive and simple tasks with critical thinking and creativity not being part of the job.

Lastly, I hope everyone tries to introspect and find out who you are and if you would make a good manager/leader. I have, and I am confident I will make a terrible manager (one of the many reasons being I would simply hate it!). I can't help thinking with the bad managers I have had to work with: Do they really lack self-awareness that much? Is their management not able to see their mess?

A theory I have is: There are two types of manangers, the first type will make excellent top or bottom level management, the second kind are great middle managers. I can't help wonder if some of the bad managers I have run into would make good middle managers and they're put there until a position opens up or something.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#24
post #12

The idea of management being the only road for advancement has always seemed extremely self-destructive to me. I recently quit my job as a senior developer at a company because they wouldn't even pay me one of the upper pay scales for developers, because a requirement for that was that I'd have to take some sort of organisational responsibility outside my team. The fact that I did a lot of organisation and steering i…

Did he work for Koch? They’re fairly famous for disconnecting compensation from supervision/leadership - I.e. individual contributors earning more than their bosses.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment he/she was replying to said; >Engineers are difficult people to manage. This is an atrocious blanket judgement if i ever saw one. And was quite rightly called out for it. I too have argued elsewhere that most Managers are only too eager to blame the Engineers when they themselves are clueless/incompetent. All the negative tropes like a) Engineers are socially inept b) Engineers are difficult c) Engineers…

Maybe I should have clarified. Engineers are difficult to manage (in my experience) because they're smart and have leverage in their role; it's not a simple manager -> worker-bee relationship. It's nothing negative.

Right; more akin to "Herding Cats" :-). But that's what allows each of them to display their aptitude and brilliance their own way. A light touch is the magic recipe. If you look at exceptional Engineers, almost always they were not obedient/yes-men but their own masters and their Managers had the good sense to allow them the freedom to do their own thing within very loose bounds.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#26
>502 Bad Gateway

I'm originally from the Detroit area. Naturally you have lots of factory mentality. Wherein workers will not work unless you're standing behind them whipping them. Largely speaking unions got very strong because these middle managers live and die by metrics they themselves dont control and can become brutal to their workers. Like for a long time you couldn't go to the washroom while at work. So what would people do? They took a dump right there on the job.

Somehow this is how managers are trained; and this is how you're expected to operate as a manager. Doesnt matter if you're white collar or any other collar. Your manager is expected and actively trained to micromanage you as often as possible. Your manager will come by hourly or so and look at or ask you what you're working on. They'll often input how you're doing it wrong... even if they have absolutely no chance of knowing how to do it properly. The bikeshedding becomes extreme. It mostly demotivates people to be responsible for everything and often 1 person ends up responsible for everything and that person takes all the heat from the manager.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#27
post #16
post #2

think for a minute: great engineers - i mean really great engineers - how many do you know? it's pretty rare right? it's an awesome thing and a scarce resource. think about how many you can mention. if you've been around it's not zero or one (yes of course you), but a handful. in my case 20-30. i feel lucky to say that. now - how many great engineering managers have you come across? i mean really great, not just OK.…

The best engineering managers I've had trusted their engineers. I think that's the most important part, and that's the part that some managers are bad at. So if you really want to promote an engineer to management, don't promote the engineers who knows everything and does everything, because they're going to micromanage everybody. Promote the engineer that asks a lot and listens a lot.

>The best engineering managers I've had trusted their engineers. I think that's the most important part, and that's the part that some managers are bad at.

Very Very True. This is the main thing that matters, everything else is secondary. "Trust" implies that you "Respect and Recognize" them as "Intelligent Decision-making Individuals" and that's what one's ego needs to do their best.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#28
Because stepping on others to climb the corporate ladder is encouraged in most of the companies. People like that are seen as ambitious, competitive while people who display empathy are seen as weak and unreliable. So at every level the filtering happens to pass up the least empathetic candidate possible. This eventually results in mostly soulless middle management and leadership who continue to hold the same culture together.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment he/she was replying to said; >Engineers are difficult people to manage. This is an atrocious blanket judgement if i ever saw one. And was quite rightly called out for it. I too have argued elsewhere that most Managers are only too eager to blame the Engineers when they themselves are clueless/incompetent. All the negative tropes like a) Engineers are socially inept b) Engineers are difficult c) Engineers…

Maybe I should have clarified. Engineers are difficult to manage (in my experience) because they're smart and have leverage in their role; it's not a simple manager -> worker-bee relationship. It's nothing negative.

Missing that point that it's not a simple worker-bee relationship and doing it is the job of the manager, not a fact about engineers.

What the manager should be doing is aligning the direction of higher-ups and developers. This takes being able to clearly understand and communicate interests and needs two-ways.

As an IC I've always been vocal about the technical needs of product or platform development as it grows and expands capabilities. There's no chance higher-ups would know these things without being exposed to situations as they develop. At the same time I have to learn about the longer-term product direction and how to sequence development, and in particular research that can uncover the unknown unknowns heading in that direction. I'm lucky to have access to information and background that lets me make good guesses. This is the kind of process that the manager should be creating and refining.

The problem is that too many 'technical' managers behave as middle managers, merely allocating developers to teams by skillset (or worse title Sr/Jr Frontend/Backend) to projects picked by product managers and let project managers try to make it work. Instead of remembering all those times as an engineer that a timely refactor would have saved the company so much money and pain and getting key ones 'in the books', they take the easy route agreeing with the hand that feeds and only aim to satisfy one side's requirements without trying to fully understand the other's.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#30
You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking why do I think so many bosses are bad and who are the people who agree or disagree with that assessment. What's a bad boss for you might be the perfect boss for someone else and that someone else is probably the person in charge who hired them.

It's like a prisoner asking, "Why are there so many bad prison guards?. They tell me where to go and what to do. If I get out of line they use increasingly coercive tactics to bring me back into line and if it gets too bad they ostracize me and put me into a box."

That prison guard is probably going to get an award for prison guard of the month and a small bonus. Bad for you, good for someone else.

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