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Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

yanmaani.github.io

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Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#21

Post by im3w1l »

Razengan wrote: post #4

How does this complete silencing of a country not disturb anybody?

I find it worrying. Even if Russia is in the wrong here, I do see an RT ban in particular as a dangerous move. Even in wartime I do think it's important to be willing to listen to the other side. They may be wrong about the big picture, but there could still be an interesting tidbit or two to takeaway. All this talk made be go check RT out and one thing I learned is that the flight ban has left Russian tourists stranded. Allowing them safe passage home does not seem unreasonable.

I also see it as turning up the tension in a way that may be hard to dial back down later. When you are cutting your self of from information, you are also cutting yourself of from the information that lets you reevaluate that decision.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#22

Post by stephen_g »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #8
Razengan wrote: post #4

How does this complete silencing of a country not disturb anybody?

Because if we don’t remove Russia from the world completely we are approving their invasion and keep the door open for further invasions. Only solution is to segregate whole country and all their allies from the world until they remove their leaders from positions of power

Have sanctions ever worked for that? Iran has been under strict sanctions for years - they haven’t removed their regime, but the people there do burn American flags in the streets… Also in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea it doesn’t seem to have helped… I don’t have any better ideas, just doesn’t seem like sanctions really work at all as either a deterrent or punishment…

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#23

Post by throwaway_rsp1 »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #8
Razengan wrote: post #4

How does this complete silencing of a country not disturb anybody?

Because if we don’t remove Russia from the world completely we are approving their invasion and keep the door open for further invasions. Only solution is to segregate whole country and all their allies from the world until they remove their leaders from positions of power

^ Because if we don’t remove Russia from the world completely we are approving their invasion and keep the door open for further invasions. Only solution is to segregate whole country and all their allies from the world until they remove their leaders from positions of power

How can you even think about segregating Russia, if China and India aren't onboard? Yes, these two countries are not going to sanction Russia. Or do you want China and India sanctioned too, remember if you sanction everybody then you are sanctioning yourself.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#24

Post by woodruffw »

yanmaani wrote: post #12
darkengine wrote: post #9

I'm the furthest thing from a lawyer, but "knowingly and intentionally" sounds to my lay self like it's a test of mens rea. If I were operating a Tor node in the EU, I would probably assume until stated otherwise that operating a Tor node remained legal, as long as I wasn't operating that node with the intention of circumventing the ban on RT.

"Knowingly and intentionally" seems to apply to the operation (e.g. "you know that you're running a Tor node") - "circumvention" is on the basis of "object or effect". (For ESL speakers: "object" means "goal", "effect" means "result", and Tor obviously has a final, de-facto result of unblocking RT)

This is an overly broad reading. The hypothetical Tor operator's object (i.e. intent) is to run a Tor node, the contents of which they are entirely agnostic to (and may be formally agnostic to, if the traffic is additionally encrypted).

To use some abductive reasoning, think about how this would apply generally: the law is clearly not written to ban encryption, even though your interpretation would suggest that any encryption amounts to intentional circumvention. If that sounds wrong to you, it's because you've confused the intent/object that the law is concerned with.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#25

Post by nextlevelwizard »

ipaddr wrote: post #18
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if we don’t remove Russia from the world completely we are approving their invasion and keep the door open for further invasions. Only solution is to segregate whole country and all their allies from the world until they remove their leaders from positions of power

Isn't this just a repeat of the cold war where one side didn't trade with another? All while pointing enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world 4 times over. Not sure if this strategy is the safest option globally. Russia wants a buffer from nato give them some assurance.

What assurances do they need? Western world has had peace for decades and only Russians have been the aggressors in any form. They are not getting any kind of buffer in fact do to this invasion they have forced Finland and Sweden to join NATO or face the same fate as Ukraine within the next decade.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#26

Post by robbedpeter »

yanmaani wrote: post #12
darkengine wrote: post #9

I'm the furthest thing from a lawyer, but "knowingly and intentionally" sounds to my lay self like it's a test of mens rea. If I were operating a Tor node in the EU, I would probably assume until stated otherwise that operating a Tor node remained legal, as long as I wasn't operating that node with the intention of circumventing the ban on RT.

"Knowingly and intentionally" seems to apply to the operation (e.g. "you know that you're running a Tor node") - "circumvention" is on the basis of "object or effect". (For ESL speakers: "object" means "goal", "effect" means "result", and Tor obviously has a final, de-facto result of unblocking RT)

If you ran a tor node and piped the content of RT to newpipetoRT.com you're in violation, but having a tor node might be comparable to operating a ham radio relay. If someone in Moscow transmitted RT encrypted over radio and decrypts it in Germany, the radio relay wouldn't necessarily be in violation.

We live in a networked world. There's an unbroken physical connection between your hardwired ISP connection and every device connected to Russia (less so with starlink and woman and 5g, but still. )

It's resilient by design, and damaging that, even for good reasons, has secondary consequences.

Going after tor nodes would be overreaching and shortsighted.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#27

Post by nextlevelwizard »

yanmaani wrote: post #16
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if we don’t remove Russia from the world completely we are approving their invasion and keep the door open for further invasions. Only solution is to segregate whole country and all their allies from the world until they remove their leaders from positions of power

My concern is that with this, you're not just segregating Russia from the world, you're segregating the EU from the world. You're going to get a new Iron Curtain, only this time, the restrictions are going to be on both sides.

We don’t need Russia. Even China has told Russia to stop the war. Only thing Russia has is gas and we shouldn’t be using fossil fuels anyway. Building of new green nuclear plants should have already been started. If you have fucked that up (like Germans) then that means you need to start hurrying

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#28

Post by halhen »

randomhodler84 wrote: post #11

Nah. But in all seriousness, this is totalitarian ruling. Wtf eu? RT might be a trash fire propaganda news but the EU ain’t at war with Russia. If the people want to listen to the propaganda, and I’m sure there were listener equivalents in neutral places either via SW or MW broadcast in ww2. Making it illegal to route packets to them and to circumvent the block? Garbage tier laws.

It seems to me that large parts of the world -are- at war with Russia. And, importantly, we manage to put a lot of pressure on the enemy without getting even more people killed.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#29

Post by perlpimp »

randomhodler84 wrote: post #11

Nah. But in all seriousness, this is totalitarian ruling. Wtf eu? RT might be a trash fire propaganda news but the EU ain’t at war with Russia. If the people want to listen to the propaganda, and I’m sure there were listener equivalents in neutral places either via SW or MW broadcast in ww2. Making it illegal to route packets to them and to circumvent the block? Garbage tier laws.

Point reference - I try to block RT on YouTube but videos are being sprinkled into recommended list and I try to click to not show this channel anymore, but it persists. Real annoying, if I have autoplay their vids would jump on the list as well as I am preoccupied. Not sure how they are gaming YT algo.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#30

Post by woodruffw »

yanmaani wrote: post #19
woodruffw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest answer to this is to look at what the previous regulation (the one being amended by this one) says[1]. Article 12 is completely unmodified except for the scope of parties involved. Since the original (2014) regulation didn't ban Tor, I think it's a safe assumption that this one doesn't either. The more detailed answer: the article actually reads as follows: > It shall be prohibited to participate, knowin…

The previous regulation didn't ban broadcasting, or anything relating to it. Re: "knowingly and intentionally," I will repost my comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30537459 >: > "Knowingly and intentionally" seems to apply to the operation (e.g. "you know that you're running a Tor node") - "circumvention" is on the basis of "object or effect". (For ESL speakers: "object" means "goal", "effect" means "result…

I responded to the second part above, below your linked comment.

For the first: broadcasting is an intentional media activity. You're right that this new regulation adds a ban, but it's not clear that said ban undermines the intent required in Article 12.

To be clear: it's a form of government censorship. But, on my reading, it's not a particularly broad form or itself a stepping stone to banning Tor. The EU seems perfectly content to broach that problem with separate regulation.

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