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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#21

Post by JacobThreeThree »

jakobdabo wrote: post #13
throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

>No, that battle is lost.

How is it lost? Jurisdictions like New Jersey, Rhode Island, San Francisco and Philadelphia have legislated that businesses must accept cash.

There are bills being worked on at the federal level.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4395

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#22

Post by walterbell »

jakobdabo wrote: post #13
throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

> No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient.

Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash.

However, cash-acceptance laws were mostly motivated by the unbanked, who are now being used to justify the introduction of nation-state CBDCs. China's CBDC is two-tier and preserves retail bank competition. People close to the current admin have proposed a 1-tier CBDC that would eliminate retail banks from payment processing, perhaps relegating them to fintech data processors.

The long-term answer is both: encourage bearer currency (cash, precious metals, zero-knowledge crypto) to anchor one edge of the Overton window with an existence proof of freedom from surveillance and kill switches, AND impose regulation on digital systems to enforce constitutional rights. 99% cashless doesn't work for tyranny, because there are escape valves. We can and must defend those exceptions, while "digital due process" is slowly constructed.

Remember when e-commerce was not subject to sales tax? For more than a decade, the playing field was not level. Today, large websites are almost unusable for buying popular items at risk of counterfeiting, and there is little online price advantage over Main Street. If you have access to a local branch of Japanese bookstore Kinokuniya (https://usa.kinokuniya.com), it's a joyful 3D curated experience vs. the chore of navigating an online bookshop with questionable reviews. The online-offline playing field is now less tilted.

Today, cashless proponents are free-riding on digital data streams whose originators lack the infrastructure for licensing or negotiation. Competition for those data streams (which feed into AI for economic advantage) is coming from {nation,city,multi}-state regulators, corporate payment networks {Apple,Amazon,Google}Pay and DRM infrastructure for data originators.

The free data ride in cashless systems, like sales tax holidays, is coming to an end.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#23

Post by umeshunni »

actually_a_dog wrote: post #4
spicybright wrote: post #2

It sounds like the author lives somewhere upper class. I've never been to a business that can't take cash.

In SF, they recently passed a law saying all stores must accept cash. https://www.ktvu.com/news/san-franciscos-cashless-ban-now-in...

No post body was provided.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#24

Post by john_moscow »

>We don’t yet know how wide the government and the banks will cast their electronic dragnet, but the potential reach is enormous, which means the potential for overreach is significant.

This is exactly what they did in Russia. If you consistently punish 100% of dissidents, you will end up with a large number of people that have nothing to lose, that will unite against you.

If you instead make it clear that anyone demonstrating dissent would face a low (but non-negligible) chance of disproportionally severe consequences, most people will shut up and comply.

Ironically, this is what terrorists do. They don't try to physically kill every citizen in the affected area, instead they demoralize the public by making them accept the fact that the next random bombing could be near their house.

Things like due process, burden of proof and separation of branches of power were not invented our of nowhere.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#25

Post by henryfjordan »

deathanatos wrote: post #15
spicybright wrote: post #2

It sounds like the author lives somewhere upper class. I've never been to a business that can't take cash.

The state of Massachusetts no longer operates toll booths along some of its toll roads. You either have an EZ Pass, or (for +$0.60 more) you get a photo taken of your plate, and a bill mailed to you, which is online or check only, no cash option. Or you stay off the toll roads, I guess. IDK what NY's policy is, but it is rather hard to cross the southern Hudson without toll. If you're renting a car, and you don't hav…

If Massachusetts says you owe money, they must accept cash. That's the point of cash being "legal tender", you cannot refuse it if someone is trying to settle a debt. That said, it might be really hard to figure out how to pay in cash.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#26

Post by SamReidHughes »

spicybright wrote: post #2

It sounds like the author lives somewhere upper class. I've never been to a business that can't take cash.

With the "coin shortage" many businesses I've seen have required exact change. I still see a few oscillating in and out of that state today -- but somehow, the less corporate places don't have this problem.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#27

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

[deleted]

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#28

Post by fr33d0m_ »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

I love and agree with every word. Thanks for writing.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#29

Post by [deleted] »

uoaei wrote: post #8
spicybright wrote: post #2

It sounds like the author lives somewhere upper class. I've never been to a business that can't take cash.

There are a few that won't take cash, especially in the more COVID-conscious areas. Nominally it was because during early pandemic people were worried about handling cash with virons on it, or otherwise bringing infected peoples' bodies nearer to cashiers' bodies than strictly necessary. Then many realized that their profits didn't take a hit since card payments are common now and nearly everyone has a card. Now it s…

[deleted]

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#30

Post by CharlesW »

neb_b wrote: post #19
jakobdabo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

As long as bitcoin exists, the battle is not lost.

Any dreams of Bitcoin replacing cash died years ago.
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