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We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#21

Post by jokethrowaway »

MattRix wrote: post #18
TrispusAttucks wrote: post #12

It's Authoritarianism in disguise. Co-opt the symbols that are antithetical to your cause and turn them to your own. It's a tragic and pathetic point of human civilization. People gathering behind a symbol that historically represents the opposite of what they are fighting for whilst totally naive to the irony. Children who are adults but can't think for themselves like adults so they need a parental figure in the fo…

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

Wow, are we even experiencing the same world?

Democrats are in favour of giving the government lockdown power because of a flu with sub 1% mortality rate, promote cancel culture, promote racial discrimination ("positive discrimination") and limits freedom of speech ("hate speech").

20 years ago I was often debating against republicans who were against gay marriage and cannabis legalisation.

Oh, how the tables have turned.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#22

Post by civilized »

monkeydreams wrote: post #10

When people start claiming that we are experiencing 'a world gone mad' or 'group hysteria' or, as in this case, "Definitional Collapse", it makes me wonder if that person's context or worldview is one of those that is under pressure. The world is, as it always has been, tribal. The pressure to ensure that the out-group stays out and the in-group is protected is stronger than ever in the face of ever-present screaming…

Collective human nature is horrible, but it is at least not 100% consistently horrible. In the relatively good times we must make the wise rules that get us through the bad times.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#23

Post by monkeydreams »

nyokodo wrote: post #13
monkeydreams wrote: post #10

When people start claiming that we are experiencing 'a world gone mad' or 'group hysteria' or, as in this case, "Definitional Collapse", it makes me wonder if that person's context or worldview is one of those that is under pressure. The world is, as it always has been, tribal. The pressure to ensure that the out-group stays out and the in-group is protected is stronger than ever in the face of ever-present screaming…

> We hold to tribes first, not beliefs. By default yes, but we broadly overcome the default in many aspects of life so we should be collectively beating back political tribalism as much as possible. We’re not slaves to our basest instincts.

> We’re not slaves to our basest instincts.

Individually, yes, but only in a limited fashion.

But with so many paths for tribalism, with each taking so much effort to bring under our conscious control, that the average person only seems to change the direction of their tribalism rather than bringing tribalism itself under control.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#24

Post by furgooswft13 »

MattRix wrote: post #18
TrispusAttucks wrote: post #12

It's Authoritarianism in disguise. Co-opt the symbols that are antithetical to your cause and turn them to your own. It's a tragic and pathetic point of human civilization. People gathering behind a symbol that historically represents the opposite of what they are fighting for whilst totally naive to the irony. Children who are adults but can't think for themselves like adults so they need a parental figure in the fo…

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

[flagged]

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#25

Post by michaelmrose »

h2odragon wrote: post #2

Hokey old values like "respect your neighbors, and their right to be wrong" will still work. "Chaos is coming" hah! It's been here all along, you've just been lying to yourself about its distance from you.

In moments of peace and plenty when your neighbor is largely right or wrong about matters of trivial import like which version of god to bow before and what sports team to root for it is easy to let your neighbor be wrong.

When both have very strong opinions about matters of vital import both sides have strong motivation to mind their neighbors business. I think that is trivially justifiable on many issues.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#26

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #21
MattRix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

Wow, are we even experiencing the same world? Democrats are in favour of giving the government lockdown power because of a flu with sub 1% mortality rate, promote cancel culture, promote racial discrimination ("positive discrimination") and limits freedom of speech ("hate speech"). 20 years ago I was often debating against republicans who were against gay marriage and cannabis legalisation. Oh, how the tables have tu…

I would say the Democrats were making it up if the USA were the only country experiencing this pandemic. Unfortunately, I think Trump was lying when he called it the Democrat hoax virus and it would disappear two weeks after Biden was elected.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#27

Post by nyokodo »

monkeydreams wrote: post #23
nyokodo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We hold to tribes first, not beliefs. By default yes, but we broadly overcome the default in many aspects of life so we should be collectively beating back political tribalism as much as possible. We’re not slaves to our basest instincts.

> We’re not slaves to our basest instincts. Individually, yes, but only in a limited fashion. But with so many paths for tribalism, with each taking so much effort to bring under our conscious control, that the average person only seems to change the direction of their tribalism rather than bringing tribalism itself under control.

> in a limited fashion.

With the proviso that everything human is subject to limitation, I don’t accept the same degree of determinism that you appear to accept. An only marginally curtailed tribalism doesn’t resemble English Common Law, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Convention etc, even in their imperfect implementations. We can do better and sure as heck don’t need to backslide.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#28

Post by michaelmrose »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #21
MattRix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

Wow, are we even experiencing the same world? Democrats are in favour of giving the government lockdown power because of a flu with sub 1% mortality rate, promote cancel culture, promote racial discrimination ("positive discrimination") and limits freedom of speech ("hate speech"). 20 years ago I was often debating against republicans who were against gay marriage and cannabis legalisation. Oh, how the tables have tu…

Covid isn't "a flu" and 1% mortality rate combined with very high permissibility in a disease that hospitalizes more like 10% of naive hosts and often keeps people in the hospital for weeks or even months is on net potentially disastrous because it had the potential to trivially overwhelm our health care resources leaving us with a mortality rate that would have included many of the 9% who would survive with hospitalization but not without.

This is why people especially in 2020 were freaking out. Not JUST the 3M we projected we might lose letting it run through us but the effect if it were to crash our health care system.

Please don't make throwaways to post covid misinformation here that you wouldn't post on your main account.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#29

Post by MattRix »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #21
MattRix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

Wow, are we even experiencing the same world? Democrats are in favour of giving the government lockdown power because of a flu with sub 1% mortality rate, promote cancel culture, promote racial discrimination ("positive discrimination") and limits freedom of speech ("hate speech"). 20 years ago I was often debating against republicans who were against gay marriage and cannabis legalisation. Oh, how the tables have tu…

The mortality rate isn’t really the problem with covid, it’s the way it overwhelms the hospitals, as has been demonstrated over and over again. Anyone who thinks the measures have been overblown has simply not talked to anyone who works in healthcare for the past two years.

On top of that cancel culture is barely a real thing, it’s really more like “consequence culture”, something that has always existed.

This may be a more controversial opinion, but I believe limiting hate speech is a good thing. I think you can make concrete rules around it, so I don’t buy the arguments that it will lead to a slippery slope of more speech being blocked.

Re: We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse

#30

Post by moistly »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #21
MattRix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the era of Trump and now this current era of book banning and preventing race-based topics in schools (among other things), I’m not sure how you can say the Authoritarianism comes from the left… unless you’re talking about temporary measures that were taken due to a global pandemic.

Wow, are we even experiencing the same world? Democrats are in favour of giving the government lockdown power because of a flu with sub 1% mortality rate, promote cancel culture, promote racial discrimination ("positive discrimination") and limits freedom of speech ("hate speech"). 20 years ago I was often debating against republicans who were against gay marriage and cannabis legalisation. Oh, how the tables have tu…

Less that the tables have turned, and more that you define “progressive” using 20th century standards, not 21st century. Society caught up to you, and that’s good enough for you.
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