I found this responsum on the Vatican site much more interesting than the news article: https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pu...
Why?
All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
21–30 of 39 posts
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
A run of Bibles printed in 1631 accidentally omitted "not" from the commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery." All of the copies were burned and the printer was fined and lost his printing license[0]. Apparently it happens a lot[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata
And that's just one that they caught. How many invalid bibles are lurking on peoples' nightstands unknowingly rendering their readers' faith invalid?
All of them...
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#23[deleted]
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#24Thank god that they "decided" in 2007 that there isn't a limbus for unbaptised babies anymore.
That was my reaction as well. Picture a benevolent deity condemning you to eternal suffering because the priest used a wrong word in their protective spell…
Limbo is a place of perfect natural happiness. The only thing unbaptized innocents lose is the beatific vision. Otherwise, they're living much better lives than either of us.
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
That was my reaction as well. Picture a benevolent deity condemning you to eternal suffering because the priest used a wrong word in their protective spell…
Limbo is a place of perfect natural happiness. The only thing unbaptized innocents lose is the beatific vision. Otherwise, they're living much better lives than either of us.
That seems to be one view of the Limbo of Infants, but other theologians were less optimistic.
Either way, do you really think it makes sense for somebody to be consigned to a place like this based on whether a priest used all the right words in a ritual?
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#26“I”, “We”…. These pedants sound like the Pharisees Jesus preached against. Also, 3-into-1 as a doctrine can lead to confusion, unless 2/3 of them don’t participate in baptism. How to turn people against formal religion. I always thought that if one approached a sacrament with an open, honest and clear conscience that the action was valid. Conversely, if you follow the form with a hard, closed heart it’s invalid. Gues…
Based on what I read in the gospels, my take would be that God cares more about the heart of the one being baptized than a minor error of speech by the one doing the baptism.
The profession of faith of the one being baptized is what I believe God cares about.
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Limbo is a place of perfect natural happiness. The only thing unbaptized innocents lose is the beatific vision. Otherwise, they're living much better lives than either of us.
That seems to be one view of the Limbo of Infants, but other theologians were less optimistic. Either way, do you really think it makes sense for somebody to be consigned to a place like this based on whether a priest used all the right words in a ritual?
Because seeing the beatific vision is a grace, God does no wrong to His creatures by not giving it (for any reason or through any mechanism).
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#28Catholicism is dying. Even my grandmas friends, devout Polish immigrants, are willing to express some confusion and doubt about the direction of Catholic dogma after a few drinks. If you take the religion seriously, it just doesn’t make sense anymore. It isn’t even really Catholic dogma anymore to assert that the Catholic Church is the only path to salvation. The Pope regularly talks about Christians broadly and defe…
I don't think it's dying - it thrives in Global South (Africa, S. America) The biggest undoing for Roman church was to succumb to theological innovations. It started a while ago and probably irreversible (see Vatican 2). I see many Catholics and protestants coming to Orthodox Church for the reason of "immutability" - the Ancient Church with Tradition that spans over almost two millennia and theology that did not change and will not change.
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#29I found this responsum on the Vatican site much more interesting than the news article: https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pu...
Very interesting! Most of it probably went above my head, but it seems that there are several problems beyond "changing a simple word";
* a priest cannot change the formula as he wishes
> to modify the sacramental formula implies a lack of an understanding of the very nature of the ecclesial ministry that is always at the service of God and his people and not the exercise of a power that goes so far as to manipulate what has been entrusted to the Church in an act that pertains to the Tradition
* when saying "We" instead of "I" he is probably meaning something different as well and acting out a different role
> When the minister says “I baptize you…” he does not speak as a functionary who carries out a role entrusted to him, but he enacts ministerially the sign-presence of Christ, who acts in his Body to give his grace and to make the concrete liturgical assembly a manifestation of “the real nature of the true Church”
I also enjoyed this quote from the footnotes:
> in personal prayer the believer can follow the impulse of the heart, in liturgical action “he must open himself to a different kind of impulse which comes from a more powerful source: namely, the heart of the Church which beats through the ages. Here it does not matter what personal tastes are, what wants he may have, or what particular cares occupy his mind...”
Re: All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word
#30“I”, “We”…. These pedants sound like the Pharisees Jesus preached against. Also, 3-into-1 as a doctrine can lead to confusion, unless 2/3 of them don’t participate in baptism. How to turn people against formal religion. I always thought that if one approached a sacrament with an open, honest and clear conscience that the action was valid. Conversely, if you follow the form with a hard, closed heart it’s invalid. Gues…
Based on what I read in the gospels, my take would be that God cares more about the heart of the one being baptized than a minor error of speech by the one doing the baptism. The profession of faith of the one being baptized is what I believe God cares about.
That's pretty hard for babies to do. I think in the Bible, only people of age to understand what they are professing ever get baptized. Even Jesus was in his 30's before he was baptized, and by definition he would understand better than anyone.