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Theses on Sleep

guzey.com

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Re: Theses on Sleep

#21

Post by guzey »

rich_sasha wrote: post #7

The whole “natural” thing is maybe a good source of ideas to try, but that’s it. A list of things that are totally unnatural: brushing teeth, antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, hip replacements, antidepressants, infant mortality below 10%, not dying of an ear infection, clean chlorinated water...

For the readers, here's my actual argument (https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#comfortable-modern-sleep-...):

>1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much.

>2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too much.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#22

Post by RandomThrow321 »

guzey wrote: post #20
jameoblameo wrote: post #8

I like that this challenges some assumptions, but it does very little to discredit the AMPLE research in the area. Other than to say, let's not trust old research, which is kind of a gas-lighty way to look at it.

I'm curious - what do you believe I should've done? How do you discredit a p-hacked small-n experiment, aside from noting that it should not be trusted a priori due to the extreme bias of the results expected from such kind of studies?

Is all sleep science based p-hacked small-n experiments?

To your point - I probably would have tried to rely on research that supports your points (which you've got me interested in now). I probably wouldn't have included a handful of anecdotes in the the appendix (including your own and Elon Musk's!), as well as 8 replies from a reddit thread as a supporting section. I probably also wouldn't equate "a person with an ADRB1 mutation can sleep less" and "a single individual that underwent brain surgery can sleep less" with "Decreasing sleep by 1-2 hours a night in the long-term has no negative health effects". I wouldn't include any arguments that say modern sleep is "unnatural", which doesn't have any real meaning or basis in reality (is modern medicine natural? what about sanitation?). The analogy to hunger is a justification rather than any type of proof, and taking the analogy further, it would suggest I should go back to sleep in the morning since I usually wake up sleepy, just as I would eat more when I'm hungry. I would be careful about saying sleep duration is a cause of depression/mania rather than considering both might be driven by a confounding variable (stimulants will certainly cause both mania and wakefulness!). I also probably wouldn't make claims like:

> Convincing a million 20-year-olds to sleep an unnecessary hour a day is equivalent, in terms of their hours of wakefulness, to killing 62,500 of them.

Without considering that you might be wrong about lifespan (not to mention healthspan) since you might very well be convincing others to effect a behavior change with your post.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#23

Post by RandomThrow321 »

guzey wrote: post #21
rich_sasha wrote: post #7

The whole “natural” thing is maybe a good source of ideas to try, but that’s it. A list of things that are totally unnatural: brushing teeth, antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, hip replacements, antidepressants, infant mortality below 10%, not dying of an ear infection, clean chlorinated water...

For the readers, here's my actual argument ( https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#comfortable-modern-sleep-... ): >1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much. >2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too…

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural.

> Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.)

> Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, with predators and enemy tribes roaming around. You are on a wooden floor, on an animal’s skin, or on the ground. The temperature will probably drop 5-10°C overnight, meaning that if you were comfortable when you were falling asleep, you are going to be freezing when you wake up. Finally, there’s moon shining right at you and all kinds of sounds coming from the forest around you.

> In contrast, today: you sleep on your super-comfortable machine-crafted foam of the exact right firmness for you. You are completely safe in your home, protected by thick walls and doors. Your room’s temperature stays roughly constant, ensuring that you stay warm and comfy throughout the night. Finally, you are in a light and sound-insulated environment of your house. And if there’s any kind of disturbance you have eye masks and earplugs.

> Does this sound “natural”?

Re: Theses on Sleep

#24

Post by maldusiecle »

reactspa wrote: post #14

> I have been able to find exactly one pre-registered experiment of the impact of prolonged sleep deprivation on cognition. It was published by economists from Harvard and MIT in 2020 and its pre-registered analysis found null effects of sleep on all variables of interest Bessone P, Rao G, Schilbach F, Schofield H, Toma M. The economic consequences of increasing sleep among the urban poor. The Quarterly Journal of Ec…

If it was published by economists, in an economics journal, doesn't that suggest you're condemning the wrong field?

Re: Theses on Sleep

#26

Post by nnoitra »

stronglikedan wrote: post #6

Perhaps coincidentally, but I can rarely sleep more then 6 hours in a night. It seems that I've always been that way. My eyes just open after about 6 hours, and I feel the need to get out of bed. The only way I've ever been able to get more is when I'm hungover or ill. I don't ever feel like I need to sleep more, but the anxiety I get from all the sleep studies telling me I do need to sleep more, sure does keep me up…

Do you feel fully rested after 6 hours?

Re: Theses on Sleep

#27

Post by guzey »

RandomThrow321 wrote: post #23
guzey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the readers, here's my actual argument ( https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#comfortable-modern-sleep-... ): >1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much. >2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too…

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural. > Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.) > Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, wit…

Yep, and here's conclusion of this argument:

>Now, what if the only sleep available to you was modern sleep?

> 1. If you don’t sleep at all, you go crazy, because some amount of sleep is necessary.

> 2. If you sleep just enough to be awake during the day, you’ll be dreaming of getting a nap at the sight of a bed and will be distracted and sleepy all the time. Importantly, I claim, in this situation, the feeling of sleepiness does not mean that you should sleep more – it’s your brain being overpowered by a superstimulus while being bored.

3. I claim that if you sleep as much as you want, you’ll probably sleep too much and become more susceptible to depression. [by analogy to eating too much]

- And if you sleep way too much at once, you’ll be feeling terrible afterwards, however pleasant the sleep was.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#28

Post by RandomThrow321 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #6

Perhaps coincidentally, but I can rarely sleep more then 6 hours in a night. It seems that I've always been that way. My eyes just open after about 6 hours, and I feel the need to get out of bed. The only way I've ever been able to get more is when I'm hungover or ill. I don't ever feel like I need to sleep more, but the anxiety I get from all the sleep studies telling me I do need to sleep more, sure does keep me up…

I wonder if you have either of the known genetic mutations related to a shorter sleep duration. I understand it's pretty rare, but some percentage of the population have them and you might be one of the lucky few!

Re: Theses on Sleep

#29

Post by Zababa »

Very interesting article. I'll try that myself, could be a fun experiment. The parallel with fasting was surprising to me, though now it sounds obvious. Outside of whether or not the author is right about their theory, this calls for more rigorous science on sleep. The value of even a small chance of adding 1/2 hours to the life of people is immense.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#30

Post by ksdale »

rich_sasha wrote: post #7

The whole “natural” thing is maybe a good source of ideas to try, but that’s it. A list of things that are totally unnatural: brushing teeth, antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, hip replacements, antidepressants, infant mortality below 10%, not dying of an ear infection, clean chlorinated water...

I feel like a bunch of the points on this list actually have an analog in Guzey's argument? Brushing teeth, for example - we do it to have a "clean" mouth, but a lot of people use mouthwash until the bacterial environment in their mouth is a barren wasteland, which is also unhealthy. Moderation is good.

Antibiotics are the same - they can also kill the flora in our intestines, and they can also lead to the creation of much more deadly microbes. Moderation is good.

Painkillers - Literally an opioid epidemic in the US right, not to mention all of the people taking OTC pain medication rather than addressing the cause of the pain, be it an underlying injury or lack of physical fitness, etc. The pain medication allows them to ignore a problem in a way that ultimately makes it worse. Moderation is good.

Harder to find analogs for the other things, and obviously I think all of these things are good on net, but just like food, excessive consumption isn't necessarily good.

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