The Promise of the Web • Hacker News Board

Re: The Promise of the Web

#21

Post by nupark2 » Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 2:54 AM UTC

Me1000 wrote: post #20

daleharvey wrote: post #13

"Now imagine a world where the browser ran something lower level. Where Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, Opera, and Apple’s jobs in providing a browser more resembled Intel’s job of providing a chipset: they simply provided hooks for basic technologies like sound, camera, movies, geolocation, etc. And on top of that, we the developers wrote HTML, CSS, JavaScript" here lies the problem, coffeescript was cited in the articl…

Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web. Cappuccino helped reinforce that fact by providing several more apps, some of which rival even their desktop counterpart (picsengine, which no longer accepts new subscribers, is just as capable as iPhoto. In fact my father actually like Picsengine better!) Recently the new iCloud applications show that sexy an…

Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web ...

So ... where are they now? It was a nicer webapp, but no substitute for Keynote. Having worked with ObjJ/Cappaccino, I found it to be a frustrating attempt at working around the browser, rather than an actual solution.

Performance on the web hasn't _really_ been an issue in years. The real issue is bad developers set the bar for web applications very low.

That's poppycock. In terme of performance, you simply can't come close to what native apps are doing. We invest enormous effort in leveraging threading and extremely low cost implementations in native code, even dropping down to NEON/etc where appropriate.

There is room for higher level languages (arguably that's what ObjC is, plus ARC) but JS simply is not a replacement for what native app developers are doing. NaCL is.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#22

Post by nupark2 » Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 3:05 AM UTC

While it's great to see web guys confronting the very real failings of HTML/JS as an application platform, I think the cultural inertia is practically insurmountable.

Web developers will be the least receptive audience possible to the idea that web applications can't compete as-is with native platforms. Native development requires a whole new skillset -- one that is likely beyond that of many existing web developers, and it requires abandoning years of cognitive training. It requires admitting that you can't necessarily have both a great app and search engine indexible app.

Google may succeed with NaCL, but I don't see how anyone else will. Mozilla is steadfastly opposed to progress beyond HTML/JS, and Apple has no interest in undercutting their own platforms.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#23

Post by Me1000 » Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 5:20 AM UTC

nupark2 wrote: post #21

Me1000 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web. Cappuccino helped reinforce that fact by providing several more apps, some of which rival even their desktop counterpart (picsengine, which no longer accepts new subscribers, is just as capable as iPhoto. In fact my father actually like Picsengine better!) Recently the new iCloud applications show that sexy an…

Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web ... So ... where are they now? It was a nicer webapp, but no substitute for Keynote. Having worked with ObjJ/Cappaccino, I found it to be a frustrating attempt at working around the browser, rather than an actual solution. Performance on the web hasn't _really_ been an issue in years. The real issue is bad deve…

280slides was nothing more than a demo app that hasn't been touched in 3 years. Atlas was the real product of 280north. I suggest trying Cappuccino today. If you're dealing with any significant browser issues, the problem is certainly not Cappuccino.

You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#24

Post by nupark2 » Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 5:35 AM UTC

Me1000 wrote: post #23

nupark2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web ... So ... where are they now? It was a nicer webapp, but no substitute for Keynote. Having worked with ObjJ/Cappaccino, I found it to be a frustrating attempt at working around the browser, rather than an actual solution. Performance on the web hasn't _really_ been an issue in years. The real issue is bad deve…

280slides was nothing more than a demo app that hasn't been touched in 3 years. Atlas was the real product of 280north. I suggest trying Cappuccino today. If you're dealing with any significant browser issues, the problem is certainly not Cappuccino. You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native…

You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed.

I'm not talking about benchmarks, I'm talking about actual application development, and the real impact the tremendous number of hours we spend as consumer app decelopers on performance has on the user experience.

I honestly can't even fathom your position, given the context of my experience maximizing application performance. All available CPU cycles are spent quite directly on performance and functionality.

Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with development beyond the web.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#25

Post by cousin_it » Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:16 PM UTC

The article does a really good job outlining the problem:

1. The web is losing ground to mobile apps. The New York Times should have been the perfect use case for the web, yet they are a native app on mobile platforms. If we extrapolate this rate of change, five years from now people will be self-publishing blog apps instead of sending you a URL.

2. That's because the web lags behind native apps in features and polish of user experience.

3. Which is because innovation on the web is gated on major browser vendors, who are slow and prone to political infighting (e.g. over video codecs).

4. The only way for little guys to add features to the web (e.g. video) is to make browser plugins (e.g. Flash). So the crusade against Flash and plugins was a bad thing.

Then the article goes on to propose a solution that I don't think is very good, but hey, at least it's a try.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#26

Post by Me1000 » Sat, Sep 24, 2011, 3:57 AM UTC

nupark2 wrote: post #24

Me1000 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

280slides was nothing more than a demo app that hasn't been touched in 3 years. Atlas was the real product of 280north. I suggest trying Cappuccino today. If you're dealing with any significant browser issues, the problem is certainly not Cappuccino. You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native…

You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed. I'm not talking about benchmarks, I'm talking about actual application development, and the real impact the tremendous number of hours we spend as consumer app decelopers on performance has on the user experience. I honestly can't even fathom…

Exactly what kind of applications are you building that require lower level languages in order to be performant? I can't think of an application I use on a daily basis that can't be done equally well in the browser. Of course there will always be certain applications that will need lower level support, but those are a very small minority.

Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with web development.

Re: The Promise of the Web

#27

Post by nupark2 » Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

Me1000 wrote: post #26

nupark2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed. I'm not talking about benchmarks, I'm talking about actual application development, and the real impact the tremendous number of hours we spend as consumer app decelopers on performance has on the user experience. I honestly can't even fathom…

Exactly what kind of applications are you building that require lower level languages in order to be performant? I can't think of an application I use on a daily basis that can't be done equally well in the browser. Of course there will always be certain applications that will need lower level support, but those are a very small minority. Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with web development.

Exactly what kind of applications are you building that require lower level languages in order to be performant?

All of them. You don't necessarily need C, you simply need to not waste CPU cycles on things that neither improve the user experience nor decrease development costs. You could achieve this with a higher-level language, including something like ObjC and ARC.

Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with web development.

I'm very familiar with the space. Every cycle counts -- if a cycle is not spent on user experience or decreasing development costs, it's a completely wasted cycle. Browsers waste mountains of cycles.

Modern desktop and mobile software makes heavy use of SMP (threads), SIMD, specific CPU-optimized code paths (in addition to SIMD, and requires that the basic platform infrastructure be as low cost as possible. You simply could not achieve glassy-smooth scrolling and other near-instantaneous UX otherwise.

I seriously doubt that you've ever built a desktop/mobile application given that you "can't think of an application I use on a daily basis that can't be done equally well in the browser.".