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Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

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Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#21

Post by Bayart »

alisonatwork wrote: post #11
throwaway984393 wrote: post #7

When is the world of software going to wake up? All programming languages suck, in one way or another. All frontend/backend paradigms suck, in one way or another. This constant churn of new, new, new is a waste. It gets replaced every few years, meaning all the time, effort and money sucked into it is gone. And engineers re-learn the same lessons over, and over, and over again. All so software engineers can be happy,…

After having been in this industry for 20+ years, I can pretty confidently say the world of software will never wake up. It's just been an endless cycle of adding abstractions, removing them again, using back end languages on the front end, using front end languages on the back end, using relational databases instead of a key value store, using key value stores instead of a relational database, unit tests over integr…

> I do wonder if there are still some corners of software development which aren't like this. Perhaps in public universities or government?

Try aerospace, defense, critical infrastructure. They tend to move much slower and methodically about their stacks.

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#22

Post by jorgeleo »

thrower123 wrote: post #16
marcos100 wrote: post #6

I love Blazor and I think this concept of using one language to write the front and back-end will be the standard way of doing SPA.

I do dearly hope Blazor works out - I would be so happy to never have to deal with the Javascript/Typescript tooling hell ever again - but I'm not holding my breath. Political shifts inside Microsoft could leave it dead and unsupported like Silverlight tomorrow...

"Political shifts inside Microsoft could leave it dead and unsupported like Silverlight tomorrow"

Assumption or knowledge?

How do you know this?

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#23

Post by Bancakes »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #7

When is the world of software going to wake up? All programming languages suck, in one way or another. All frontend/backend paradigms suck, in one way or another. This constant churn of new, new, new is a waste. It gets replaced every few years, meaning all the time, effort and money sucked into it is gone. And engineers re-learn the same lessons over, and over, and over again. All so software engineers can be happy,…

At this point learning C++ standards is like learning new frameworks. There is no escape other than reclusing to C (maybe not so bad!)

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#24

Post by chrisweekly »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #7

When is the world of software going to wake up? All programming languages suck, in one way or another. All frontend/backend paradigms suck, in one way or another. This constant churn of new, new, new is a waste. It gets replaced every few years, meaning all the time, effort and money sucked into it is gone. And engineers re-learn the same lessons over, and over, and over again. All so software engineers can be happy,…

If you can only see the churn and froth, that doesn't mean there aren't great waves to surf; you might just need to paddle out to a better spot.

https://remix.run is a prime example. It's new, and better, and simpler.

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#25

Post by lucasyvas »

I'm surprised this wasn't about WASM.

Either way, I'm receptive to the "LiveView" model, but until such a time a server can deliver both HTML and server driven native UI for mobile interchangeably, I prefer the RPC approach.

I don't want to develop:

1. Both an API for mobile and LiveView for web.

OR

2. Create my own server driven UI paradigm for mobile.

I find maintaining one architectural pattern simpler. I do want to support users with the best technology fit, but I don't see why I have to make this tradeoff. The platform holders are (and always have been) jerking us around.

I want to see a LiveView that can deliver both HTML and equivalent native UI markup. This is needed to sell the vision end to end - the world is not just web.

I feel like this would enable a more sensible choice:

Offline (first)? Use RPC with sync.

Online-only? Use the LiveView paradigm and it'll work with native or web.

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#26

Post by matt7340 »

Funny to see these new incarnations of the old ASP.NET UpdatePanel. I despised WebForms back in the day, but always had a soft spot for the UpdatePanel, seemed like a great idea. Especially when the alternative was manually building and managing UI on the client using ASP.NET AJAX.

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#27

Post by hfourm »

jack_riminton wrote: post #20
alisonatwork wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having been in this industry for 20+ years, I can pretty confidently say the world of software will never wake up. It's just been an endless cycle of adding abstractions, removing them again, using back end languages on the front end, using front end languages on the back end, using relational databases instead of a key value store, using key value stores instead of a relational database, unit tests over integr…

Agree. Specifically on the point of "clear, documented and maintainable" I think this is where languages such as Ruby (and therefore Rails) shines. Since it was "optimized for developer happiness" ( https://news.learnenough.com/ruby-optimized-for-programmer-h... ) it's more likely to be easier to understand, document and maintain.

Unfortunately in practice, there is so much ruby/rails magic going on that most Rails projects end up in terrible shape.

It's kind of a catch-22, and tons of companies have overcome it, but rails by far has the "least long term maintainable" defaults. Good for quick prototypes/small teams but bad for large and scaling teams

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#28

Post by ojr »

Javascript on the server-side has gone from something that was advised to never be used in production. Now it is so ubiquitous that people are trying to replace it with something new and more strict and less freedom... I am fan of modern javascript, I don’t complain or mad about the fast rate of change and improvement in the language. I kept up with all the latest javascript tools and now can build full-stack applications on mobile and web with very similar codebases faster than ever.

Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end

#29

Post by oschvr »

phoe-krk wrote: post #14

See CLOG, the Common Lisp Omnificent GUI - a recent project which is an implementation of this paradigm. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/s1itqi/the_common_lis... https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/sd9wf1/clog_builder_c...

Unfortunate naming..

"I CLOGed my frontend"

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