Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions • Hacker News Board

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#21

Post by cmg » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #12

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

Trans Lifeline [1] calls that practice "Non-consensual rescue" and they're very strongly against it. > The organization’s hotline does not engage in non-consensual active rescue,[15] meaning operators never call 911, police, or emergency services on callers without an expressed request and consent, based on research associating involuntary hospitalization with increases suicide attempts after discharge.[16][17] Addit…

Former Technology Director for TL here - I maintained and deeply extended their hotline software. We took confidentiality and anonymity very, very seriously. Operators never, ever see the phone number of the caller, and vice versa. Only admins can even look up a caller by phone number. There were other technical measures as well, but I'm not going to give them up in a public forum, hope that's understandable.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#22

Post by ReactiveJelly » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #10

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

Basically same experience. Even the mental health hotlines can be the same way. Unless you tell them you plan on killing yourself they say there is nothing they can do to help.

Yeah there's been 4 or 5 times where I really wanted someone to talk to, but I'm just not a suicidal person, so it feels weird to tie up a suicide hotline for my petty problems.

So then you go to a therapist and they're like "You have to want to change".

I don't know about that. I used to have friends. I don't want to change, I want to have friends again!

Considering how much therapy costs, I've joked about just hiring prostitutes to be my friends for hourly pay. Why can't the gig economy meet that demand, huh? I'll pay $15 an hour to share my opinions on Linux with another trans girl while she pretends to listen. That's an entire work shift for the price of 1 hour of therapy!

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#23

Post by gjsman-1000 » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #12

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

Trans Lifeline [1] calls that practice "Non-consensual rescue" and they're very strongly against it. > The organization’s hotline does not engage in non-consensual active rescue,[15] meaning operators never call 911, police, or emergency services on callers without an expressed request and consent, based on research associating involuntary hospitalization with increases suicide attempts after discharge.[16][17] Addit…

Can't help but have flashbacks to The Incredibles where Mr. Incredible was sued by a person he saved from suicide because that was involuntary...

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#24

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

jonwachob91 wrote: post #19

chrisseaton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk How's that legally done? Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.

In Florida we call it the "Baker Act" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act

Scary isn't it. People used to think sexual desire in women was a 'mental illness'. I wonder what we're committing people for today that will embarrass us in the future.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#25

Post by ericbarrett » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:40 PM UTC

alexashka wrote: post #13

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

You have to understand that this is a poorly paid phone job for the person on the other end. They don't have a PhD. They are not top 1% intelligence, top 1% compassion and top 1% drive to help others. They are just people who applied for a job, got it and are following a script or whatever little training they've been given. When you're younger, you think there's adults who know a thing or two. Then you grow up and r…

In fact they may not even be employed; a relative of mine had to do a few shifts on such a hotline as part of a community service sentence for a non-violent misdemeanor.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#26

Post by thrown_22 » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:40 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

Whenever someone says that you should trust psychiatrists and the huge number of other similar professions I just point out that forcible admission is not rare and that they will share anything that they deem a 'risk', such as "I will shoot John if he chews with his mouth open one more time."

If you want to get someone to listen to your problems without telling them to anyone you can't do better than the catholic church:

>Priests may not reveal what they have learned during confession to anyone, even under the threat of their own death or that of others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_confession_in_the_Cath...

Ironically enough the apparatchiks of the Communist Party of Poland would often use uncorruptible priests to vent. Ones they had used the secret service to vet by entrapping them.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#27

Post by thrown_22 » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:44 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #22

encryptluks2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically same experience. Even the mental health hotlines can be the same way. Unless you tell them you plan on killing yourself they say there is nothing they can do to help.

Yeah there's been 4 or 5 times where I really wanted someone to talk to, but I'm just not a suicidal person, so it feels weird to tie up a suicide hotline for my petty problems. So then you go to a therapist and they're like "You have to want to change". I don't know about that. I used to have friends. I don't want to change, I want to have friends again! Considering how much therapy costs, I've joked about just hiri…

>Considering how much therapy costs, I've joked about just hiring prostitutes to be my friends for hourly pay. Why can't the gig economy meet that demand, huh? I'll pay $15 an hour to share my opinions on Linux with another trans girl while she pretends to listen. That's an entire work shift for the price of 1 hour of therapy!

If you talk to escorts a surprisingly large chunk of their clientele does exactly that. That said $15 is no where near enough to have to listen to someone talk about how great Arch is.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#28

Post by alexashka » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:45 PM UTC

ericbarrett wrote: post #25

alexashka wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand that this is a poorly paid phone job for the person on the other end. They don't have a PhD. They are not top 1% intelligence, top 1% compassion and top 1% drive to help others. They are just people who applied for a job, got it and are following a script or whatever little training they've been given. When you're younger, you think there's adults who know a thing or two. Then you grow up and r…

In fact they may not even be employed; a relative of mine had to do a few shifts on such a hotline as part of a community service sentence for a non-violent misdemeanor.

Haha my mind cannot believe this to be true and yet it'd take some 4D chess to have made up such a strange, specific lie.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#29

Post by ketzo » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

cmg wrote: post #21

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans Lifeline [1] calls that practice "Non-consensual rescue" and they're very strongly against it. > The organization’s hotline does not engage in non-consensual active rescue,[15] meaning operators never call 911, police, or emergency services on callers without an expressed request and consent, based on research associating involuntary hospitalization with increases suicide attempts after discharge.[16][17] Addit…

Former Technology Director for TL here - I maintained and deeply extended their hotline software. We took confidentiality and anonymity very, very seriously. Operators never, ever see the phone number of the caller, and vice versa. Only admins can even look up a caller by phone number. There were other technical measures as well, but I'm not going to give them up in a public forum, hope that's understandable.

Just wanna say thank you for your work.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#30

Post by wfn » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:48 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

I'm sorry to hear you had these shitty experiences :( FWIW, I agree with some others who say that it differs between hotlines and it does depend.

I volunteer at one (working at software doesn't provide enough meaning as far as activities go, and this does, as a side thing), and we are very strict about not forcing advice (or rescue) on anyone. (I had to go through multi-month trainings, practice, then supervision etc., we have ongoing seminars and equivalent of QA, etc.) The primary goal is provide emotional support and to give the caller a safe space where they can be heard, openly express and talk about their feelings and thoughts. We are there expressly not to solve any issues they are having. If they need it and consent to it and give an address (the calls are anonymous), we can call an ambulance; but even then the preference is if the caller does that.

I can tell (with some statistics and also lots of feedback) that the support does address the callers' emotional needs to be heard (sometimes to organise thoughts, understand their emotions, to speak to a real human and feel less lonely, etc.)